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Old 05-16-2016, 09:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickerman View Post
Was it because Truman wanted to fight a more reserved war whereas McArthur moved his troops forward and enticed the Chinese to attack? Did Truman blamed McArthur for forcing the Chinese into the war?
Douglas MacArthur was an accomplished, yet egotistical commander. He is given credit as one of the architects of the "island-hopping" strategy during World War II. This strategy was based on the idea that the USA would deliberately avoid attacking Japanese strong points in the Pacific where possible. Instead, we would seize only those islands we felt had superior strategic value to our military.

As such, we avoided assaults on islands in the South Pacific such as Rabaul. Rabaul was built into an extremely strong fortress by the Japanese and an invasion of this island would have cost us thousands of unnecessary casualties.

William Manchester wrote an excellent biography of MacArthur titled American Caesar. He gives MacArthur credit for taking more square miles of territory from the enemy with fewer casualties than any other commander during World War II. Manchester's analysis can be questioned. Much of the territory taken were miles of ocean space. However, it doesn't change the fact that MacArthur was a very effective commander who clearly understood his job.

MacArthur lead a postwar occupation of Japan and performed well in this role as well. He pushed in a surprisingly liberal direction for a conservative military commander. The new Japanese Constitution that was implemented under his rule gave women the right to vote, rejected the idea that the emperor was a deity, established parliamentary rule, and prohibited the country from having a standing army.

The problem was that MacArthur had no sense of humility. Nor, did he grasp that all important concept that, in America, the military is subservient to the President and civilians.

MacArthur was in Japan in 1950 when the North Korean Army invaded South Korea. Truman ordered him to go to South Korea and command the American forces there resisting the invasion. MacArthur initially performed well and halted the North Korean advance at the Pusan Perimeter. He than followed up with an invasion at Inchon which was behind North Korean lines. The North Korean Army went into full retreat at MacArthur pursued them into North Korea.

Unfortunately for MacArthur the story does not end there. MacArthur took several actions which lead to his being relieved by President Truman. They were:

1. As his troops pursued the North Korean Army into North Korea, he failed to grasp that his actions were likely to bring communist China into the war. When asked about this at a conference at Wake Island by President Truman, MacArthur stated that such intervention was highly unlikely and if China did intervene it would have minimal effect.

2. MacArthur was openly disdainful of orders from Truman not to bomb targets on the border with communist China and North Korea. Truman acted this way because he was hoping to avoid an even bigger war.

3. MacArthur held press conferences without clearing his statements first with the President. He outlined an entire strategy for reporters that was on a "presidential scale".

4. When communist China did intervene in the war and turned victory into a stalemate, MacArthur actually demanded authority from the President to use nuclear weapons and any other weapons at his disposal without getting clearance first. He suggested the President was to blame for the Chinese invasion and seemingly timed his statements to coincide with the midterm elections for Congress in 1950.

5. While his invasion of Inchon was a great victory, many in the military who examined it later, concluded that it had the potential for being an outright disaster. It was only good luck that brought victory to the USA. Tides at Inchon vary a great deal and had to be perfectly timed for the invasion to succeed. Some felt what had been done was simply too risky.

In short, MacArthur was guilty ultimately of hubris. Its the idea that he believed he could do or accomplish anything he wanted and there was no one above him who should be allowed to check or control his actions. In America, we have civilian control of the military in our Constitution. MacArthur couldn't accept that and had to give up his command.
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Old 05-16-2016, 09:57 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Where did we get the idea that Mac was the author of the island-hopping strategy? This is commonly associated with the Central Pacific campaign.
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Old 05-17-2016, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Type 0.73 Kardashev
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
The USSR had no operational nuclear capability AFIK in 1950.
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
As we now know in 2016. The knowledge about their availability was more nebulous on 1950.
No more mebulous than what M3 Mitch states above.

On August 29 1949, the USSR detonated its first nuclear weapon. Three days later, a reconnaissance WB-29 flying between Japan and Alaska detected radioactive residue from the shot. Even then it was almost impossible to conduct a nuclear test and hide the fact. Twenty months later, in April of 1951 when President Truman was retiring General MacArthur, the Soviets still hadn't managed their second nuclear test shot (and they wouldn't until September of that year). Given the undoubted fact that Stalin was highly interested in assembling a nuclear deterrent, this was a very clear indication that the USSR was not producing nuclear devices in any number and in any case was not able to deploy them - it's one thing to coddle a nuclear device that you can make the size of a house and detonate it at your leisure on a test site, but it's quite another to miniaturize one such that it can be delivered via B-29 (or Tu-4) and work properly.
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Old 05-17-2016, 10:39 AM
 
1,535 posts, read 1,381,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Douglas MacArthur was an accomplished, yet egotistical commander. He is given credit as one of the architects of the "island-hopping" strategy during World War II. This strategy was based on the idea that the USA would deliberately avoid attacking Japanese strong points in the Pacific where possible. Instead, we would seize only those islands we felt had superior strategic value to our military.
Macarthur's military abilities seems to be a strange mix of genuine exceptional ability, egotistical self promotion and poor performance. Hmm... maybe Donald Trump is a civilian equivelant?

Macarthur's forces in the Phillipines were very poorly prepared, even by the confident standards of pre WWII for the Japanese invasion. Likewise, Macarthur kept himself on the island fortress of Corrigedor and rarely, if ever visited front line postiions (Dug out Dug).

He then launches a campaign of self promotion and initiates the very successful Island Hopping Strategy that emphasizes mobility and agility over needless assaults. As you mentioned, thousands of lives are saved. His administration of Japan was exceptional and benefitted not only the US, but the Japanese as well.

Five years later, and Macarthur's forces in Japan and Korea are again very poorly prepared to resist the surprisingly proficient North Koreans. Disaster nearly ensues until they are stopped at the Pusan Perimeter. Then... Macarthur pulls off the brilliant Inchon landing and stunning victory, only to ignore growing reports that hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops were filtering into North Korea.... .
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:33 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Where did we get the idea that Mac was the author of the island-hopping strategy? This is commonly associated with the Central Pacific campaign.
He never hopped! He spent about a year and half clearing New Guinea and then went onto to invade the Philippines.
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Old 05-17-2016, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
No more mebulous than what M3 Mitch states above.

On August 29 1949, the USSR detonated its first nuclear weapon. Three days later, a reconnaissance WB-29 flying between Japan and Alaska detected radioactive residue from the shot. Even then it was almost impossible to conduct a nuclear test and hide the fact. Twenty months later, in April of 1951 when President Truman was retiring General MacArthur, the Soviets still hadn't managed their second nuclear test shot (and they wouldn't until September of that year). Given the undoubted fact that Stalin was highly interested in assembling a nuclear deterrent, this was a very clear indication that the USSR was not producing nuclear devices in any number and in any case was not able to deploy them - it's one thing to coddle a nuclear device that you can make the size of a house and detonate it at your leisure on a test site, but it's quite another to miniaturize one such that it can be delivered via B-29 (or Tu-4) and work properly.
Well, firstly Joe-1 was essentially a copy of the Trinity device, because, that's what Beria ordered. The Fat Man bomb was essentially the same as Trinity with an egg-shaped, finned ballistic case. Just to keep the detonator wires from flapping in the breeze. Of course, it was not known for a fact that the USSR had copied Trinity, but that would be a good guess.

We did know they did one nuclear test. We didn't know how quickly they would go into production, but knew that we only took a few months. We didn't do a second test shot until *after* using the first bombs in combat.

Also true that we didn't have very good recon over USSR in 1950.

So I think it was a fair comment that while the USSR in fact had no operational capability, in 1950 that was not well known to US intel.
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
We had been producing at least one a month since 1945. That's ...
many ... by 1950.

By 1950 the USA had several hundred nuclear weapons and a an intercontinental bomber called the B-36, an upgraded B-29 called the B-50. Test flights of the jet bombers B-47 and B-52 were underway as was the early design of a supersonic bomber B-58 . Our nuclear arsenal had what were called fission boosted and fission-fusion boosted bombs (bombs X10 in yield over Trinity and Hiroshima) and a year later a proof of principle all fusion device (Test code Series Ivy test shot Mike). The USA had a military H-bomb in 1956 (Test series Castle shot Bravo) . Russia tested its first bomb in 1949 and its first air drop from the Tu-4 (a B-29 copy by Tupolev from wartime B-29s intered in Siberia before the USSR declared war on Japan) in 1951 .

Last edited by mwruckman; 05-17-2016 at 03:59 PM..
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:52 PM
 
1,535 posts, read 1,381,763 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Where did we get the idea that Mac was the author of the island-hopping strategy? This is commonly associated with the Central Pacific campaign.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
He never hopped! He spent about a year and half clearing New Guinea and then went onto to invade the Philippines.
Operation Cartwheel which cleared islands on the approaches to New Guinea was General Macarthur's idea and was the prelude to island hopping on a larger scale. Likewise, his New Guinea campaign involved by passing alot of Japanese garrisons (essentially islands due to the intervening jungles).

Macarthur, never one to shy from self promotion also either coined, or claimed coinage on the by passing terms of "Let them whither on the vine" and "Hit them where they are not".

Last edited by Cryptic; 05-17-2016 at 04:16 PM..
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Old 05-17-2016, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
6,105 posts, read 5,973,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Well, firstly Joe-1 was essentially a copy of the Trinity device, because, that's what Beria ordered. The Fat Man bomb was essentially the same as Trinity with an egg-shaped, finned ballistic case. Just to keep the detonator wires from flapping in the breeze. Of course, it was not known for a fact that the USSR had copied Trinity, but that would be a good guess.

We did know they did one nuclear test. We didn't know how quickly they would go into production, but knew that we only took a few months. We didn't do a second test shot until *after* using the first bombs in combat.

Also true that we didn't have very good recon over USSR in 1950.

So I think it was a fair comment that while the USSR in fact had no operational capability, in 1950 that was not well known to US intel.

It was more than a good guess, because Beria had a copy of the Trinity engineering drawings sent from Los Alamos by Klaus Fuchs a member of a British team sent to America to combine British and American nuclear expertise to make the First bomb as quickly as possible. 20 yeas ago after the fall of the USSR
the BBC and The Discovery Channel produced a 3 part series called The Red Bomb which detailed the story of Soviet spying and the all out effort the USSR made once the first nuclear bombs were exploded to get the Soviets a comparable weapon. The bomb's "Chief Designer" Academician Yuli Khariton said this bomb is a direct copy of Trinity. He also said this was an admission for which I would have been shot.
The Russians named their first test after Thor's Hammer or Moln'yr which is also the Russian word for thunder (an appropriate name). After Moln'yr Soviets did make changes and benefited from the work of three younger physicists Andrei Sakharov, Vitali Ginzberg and Yakov Zel'dovich and the USSR tested its first hydrogen fusion weapon in 1955, a year before the USA tested its first weaponizable H-bomb in 1956.
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Old 05-17-2016, 05:02 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
3,287 posts, read 2,291,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
Operation Cartwheel which cleared islands on the approaches to New Guinea was General Macarthur's idea and was the prelude to island hopping on a larger scale. Likewise, his New Guinea campaign involved by passing alot of Japanese garrisons (essentially islands due to the intervening jungles).

Macarthur, never one to shy from self promotion also either coined, or claimed coinage on the by passing terms of "Let them whither on the vine" and "Hit them where they are not".
"Prelude" to doing what again?
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