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Old 06-24-2016, 04:52 PM
 
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I am thinking that another factor might be that every day war was avoided with Germany was a day when its armed forces were suffering casualties, and the infrastructure in the U.S. to build tanks, planes, ships, etc. was getting stronger. Territorial gains were incremental after the fall of France. The real concern would be German munitions buildup.
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Old 06-24-2016, 07:05 PM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
I am thinking that another factor might be that every day war was avoided with Germany was a day when its armed forces were suffering casualties, and the infrastructure in the U.S. to build tanks, planes, ships, etc. was getting stronger. Territorial gains were incremental after the fall of France. The real concern would be German munitions buildup.
On the griping hand the US didn't firewall production until after hostilities began. So every day of "peace" was a day of 95% lost production.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
In the spirit of discussing what *did* happen instead of speculating about what might have happened if some historical fact were changed, I'd like to discuss the motivations for the German declaration of war on the US at the start of WWII.

Frankly to me it seems like a dumb move. Not certain if the Nazi regime knew about Pearl Harbor plans in advance, were notified or consulted. IIRC they were not.

Not clear to me that Germany could have stayed out of it for years, but, not clear at all why they jumped in with both feet of their own accord when they did.

This is case where I don't see a success path being available to the attacking party when they attacked. Given the industrial infrastructure and particularly petroleum resources and industry in the US at the time, and with Germany not having any real way to attack the US homeland, seems to me the outcome was pre-ordained from the beginning. Clearly, the US could get to Britain, and then launch attacks on the German homeland from there. There is no similar island off the US east coast. They did have some designs for bombers and even missiles that could reach the US, but these were at least several years in the future even in 1945.

So why didn't Hitler just say to Tojo, "Interesting fight you have picked there, good luck with it!" ? Just plain hubris, thinking he could win the day by - what exactly?
Hitler gave a speech to the German Reichstag stating that Germany was declaring war on the USA and he gave reasons why. Compared to much of the propaganda that Hitler put out, his speech to German Reichstag was fairly honest. He gave these as the reasons for going to war:

1. Germany's Axis alliance with Japan obligated it to support Japan which was now at war with the USA.

2. Hitler argued that the USA was actually at war with Germany already. He cited American actions in convoying supplies to Britain and the USSR. He cited Lend Lease under which America loaned weapons to those countries as well. America had adopted a "shoot on sight" policy that was directed at U-boats that came in sight of convoys of ships American destroyers were escorting across the ocean.

In hindsight, Germany should have ignored all provocations and avoided bringing the USA into the war at all costs. Yet, Hitler was probably so convinced of his own invincibility that he didn't believe America could do anything that would significantly change the outcome of the war. Germany had even had a similar experience in World War I and had seen American troops turn the tide of the war in 1918 against them. It was a lesson Hitler ignored to his great detriment.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...d_States_(1941)
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
So why didn't Hitler just say to Tojo, "Interesting fight you have picked there, good luck with it!" ? Just plain hubris, thinking he could win the day by - what exactly?
Well, simply put, that's what megalomaniacs do.
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
On the griping hand the US didn't firewall production until after hostilities began. So every day of "peace" was a day of 95% lost production.
Good point. IIRC, Ford was selling to the Nazis, but his plant that was involved was in Germany, not the U.S.
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Old 06-25-2016, 05:29 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
Good point. IIRC, Ford was selling to the Nazis, but his plant that was involved was in Germany, not the U.S.
Ford Germany was a separate entity by that point. People link Ford with that company because of his antisemitism, which he had renounced by the start of the war.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
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Originally Posted by OpanaPointer View Post
Ask him yourself?

HITLER ANNOUNCED TO THE REICHSTAG THE DECLARATION OF WAR AGAINST THE UNITED STATES
December 11, 1941

(It's really painful to read, and I had to proof it, all forty+ pages.)
What an excellent reference you found. Some authors call World War 2 World War 1b. Hitler makes reference to the old enemies of WW 1, the Anglo-Saxon powers and we certainly were Anglo-Saxon then. I believe that Hitler wanted to bring Britain to its knees and the convoy system was an impediment. Freely attacking all ships in the convoy system might have been added motivation. Hitler made the same mistake that the Japanese high command did. He underestimated our ability react quickly enough to make a difference.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:51 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
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Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
What an excellent reference you found. Some authors call World War 2 World War 1b. Hitler makes reference to the old enemies of WW 1, the Anglo-Saxon powers and we certainly were Anglo-Saxon then. I believe that Hitler wanted to bring Britain to its knees and the convoy system was an impediment. Freely attacking all ships in the convoy system might have been added motivation. Hitler made the same mistake that the Japanese high command did. He underestimated our ability react quickly enough to make a difference.
Not found, created. I started that site during Desert Shield.
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Old 06-29-2016, 08:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
So, what can we learn from all this? Was US participation in WWII essentially inevitable, was there anything FDR or his predecessors could have done to keep the US out of it? Or would that in itself have had a more negative consequence than fighting in the war (Possibly most of Continental Europe under Nazi control, maybe even with the USSR having cut a deal to end the war on the eastern front, a deal favorable to the Nazi regime?)
It was actually quite the opposite. FDR and his cabinet were eager for full blown war with Germany, but the isolationist American public and the opposition party (Republicans) were opposed. The best FDR could manage was undeclared naval warfare with Germany in the Atlantic, but a formal declaration of war never would have flown with the public pre-Pearl Harbor. He was looking for an excuse to enter the war, and that excuse came when Pearl Harbor occurred. Germany's declaration was a gift to FDR because it eliminated any opposing arguments.

Absent U.S. involvement, I believe that the Red Army would have overrun all of Europe eventually. The Soviets had already won the pivotal battles on the Eastern front by the time the first U.S. troops set foot in Europe. I see no scenario where Hitler or Stalin would have agreed on peace. It was all or nothing for both sides. So we'd be looking at an all-Commie Europe today if not for U.S. involvement.

Last edited by Nolefan34; 06-29-2016 at 08:45 PM..
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:55 AM
 
Location: St. Louis
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After June, 1940, the United States became increasingly less isolationist. FDR was actually behind public opinion during 1941. Twice in that year, that I know of, his cabinet was unanimous that he could get a declaration of war through Congress. As I recall the numbers 68% said we would have to go to war with Germany sooner or later, and 72% said the same thing about Japan.

The main thing stopping him was that the country just wasn't ready. In the last week of November, 1941, the heads of the Army and Navy sent him a letter asking that he delay entry into the war for as long as he could, "ninety days if possible."

For those who want to see the numbers. You'll see the exact number on the public positions regarding Germany and Japan. You'll also see that ~88% didn't want to go to war. What sane person does? However we weren't going to get that choice.
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