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Old 04-09-2017, 07:16 PM
 
Location: (six-cent-dix-sept)
6,639 posts, read 4,521,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
In the case of New France, natives welcomed the colonists as a good thing. The natives looked forward to the annual returns of the French. And in many ways, the French colonies WERE positive for the natives.

Spanish.......not so much.
most french speaking countries are quite poor and unstable for 10's of generations. the island of hispanola alone is quite evident of that.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:09 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,421 posts, read 16,517,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maineguy8888 View Post
The narrative is cemented in place: native Americans lived wonderfully until the western powers settled America, took their land, and did terrible things to the natives.
Where, in this longstanding narrative, do inconvenient facts fit?? Such as the native tribes "stealing" each other's territory on a regular basis? Or the tribes who killed elderly members once they became a burden? Or the slaughtering of other tribes' babies and children as retaliatory "justice" during times of conflict? (I can go on). Were these things good?
I am not saying we should idealize the colonizers either. Perhaps a more balanced view??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Could you perhaps provide us with an example or two of any historians who are presenting the view you outline above? Any textbooks?

Against whom are you specifically complaining?
Mann's excellent book 1491 bears out a lot of this. He states that even the most advanced Native Americans never invented a wheel and the first burden-bearing animals were imported by the Spaniards. Aside from the Mann book there is extensive documentation of brutal wars among Mexican Native Americans, of Mayans throwing people off cenotes, or deep water wells. The First Nations (Canada) and Inuits certainly did not get along. The Plains Indians wasted vast numbers of buffalo by stampeding them off cliffs to kill them.

All of the advanced societies had extensive slaveholding as a tradition. And as far as the less advanced ones, why the susceptibility to "fire water"?

The natives were not all gentle fishermen who simply pulled out of some trout or salmon stream what they needed. They did disturb nature by overfishing, overhunting, staring fires to create clearings, and other practices we would find objectionable.

I write not to demonize the natives but to have people understand that the Americas were not some Edenic paradise before the white Europeans "ruined it all."
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:42 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in America
15,479 posts, read 15,505,565 times
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OP, what textbook/encyclopedia are you reading? Can't say I was ever taught that life here was amazingly fabulous. I was taught that life was quite challenging. The constant hunt for food, constant battles between the tribes, weather issues, bug issues, yeah life was great.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Caribou, Me.
6,928 posts, read 5,853,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss20ts View Post
OP, what textbook/encyclopedia are you reading? Can't say I was ever taught that life here was amazingly fabulous. I was taught that life was quite challenging. The constant hunt for food, constant battles between the tribes, weather issues, bug issues, yeah life was great.
"Champlain's Dream" by David Hackett Fischer at the moment.

The idea that colonization was bad for natives can't ever really be tested, but one can try this: imagine a North America where no "outsiders" could ever encroach (say, because an atmospheric condition allowed no penetration). But outsiders COULD spy from above, with satellites, etc.
What would be the conditions of the tribes, and the place, in 2017.....if no contact had taken place???
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:23 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,739,934 times
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I honestly would like to know the motivation for the OPs post regarding idealizing native Americans.

This is because it seems that there is a concerted effort by many nationalist sorts of websites today to try to take away the "guilt" of the subscribers to their ideology by laying "blame" on people who were killed or conquered by Europeans immigrating to American between the 15th and 19th centuries.

That said, I think various people and histories are romanticized and idealized in history. Those who do not learn about history from a more factual perspective (of many different sides) are those people who are more likely to believe these romanticized and idealized accounts.

In regards to indigenous Americans, I think it would be silly to assume that for tens of thousands of years that none of them fought amongst each other. Also there are many popular movies and stories that depict natives fighting themselves and some of their practices that are not idealized.

Even the one you mentioned regarding old people being left to die due to them being a burden, this is also something that a movie was made about. And just that snippet does not really provide any background information on the practice and the fact that older people in those tribes usually instructed the tribe to leave them once they felt they were a burden so it wasn't some forcing of the old person to die.

Nearly all societies at one point felt it was appropriate to commit infanticide against disabled newborns as well. So this is not something that is not known about and especially is known about for people who are interested in history or anthropology.

I think the best thing about learning about the history of the people of our world is the fact that we are very similar historically and even socially today than what we think we are. No one has the upper hand on war or causing devastation. Some ethnic groups/cultures are better at it than others and some are more peaceful than others but history should not be looked at IMO as a blame game. It is something to study and learn about in order to not repeat similar mistakes as our ancestors.
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Caribou, Me.
6,928 posts, read 5,853,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I honestly would like to know the motivation for the OPs post regarding idealizing native Americans.

This is because it seems that there is a concerted effort by many nationalist sorts of websites today to try to take away the "guilt" of the subscribers to their ideology by laying "blame" on people who were killed or conquered by Europeans immigrating to American between the 15th and 19th centuries.

That said, I think various people and histories are romanticized and idealized in history. Those who do not learn about history from a more factual perspective (of many different sides) are those people who are more likely to believe these romanticized and idealized accounts.

In regards to indigenous Americans, I think it would be silly to assume that for tens of thousands of years that none of them fought amongst each other. Also there are many popular movies and stories that depict natives fighting themselves and some of their practices that are not idealized.

Even the one you mentioned regarding old people being left to die due to them being a burden, this is also something that a movie was made about. And just that snippet does not really provide any background information on the practice and the fact that older people in those tribes usually instructed the tribe to leave them once they felt they were a burden so it wasn't some forcing of the old person to die.

Nearly all societies at one point felt it was appropriate to commit infanticide against disabled newborns as well. So this is not something that is not known about and especially is known about for people who are interested in history or anthropology.

I think the best thing about learning about the history of the people of our world is the fact that we are very similar historically and even socially today than what we think we are. No one has the upper hand on war or causing devastation. Some ethnic groups/cultures are better at it than others and some are more peaceful than others but history should not be looked at IMO as a blame game. It is something to study and learn about in order to not repeat similar mistakes as our ancestors.


My "interest" is solely in tradition. And I don't mean that term lightly. The accrued experiences and wisdom of past peoples (at times) advanced civilization. Modern America would tell you that everything about the past was completely evil. I find that an atrocious sentiment.
By the way, I apologize about the thread's title..........it appears some autocomplete was done prior to me hitting "enter" and I didn't notice it. And I can't figure out how to correct it now. I honestly DO have more than a third grade education.....lol... (a masters degree, with a bachelors in history).
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:49 AM
 
14,985 posts, read 23,758,508 times
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Everyone is approaching this from the wrong angle:

OP the idea of the "Noble Savage" predates the American Indian. It's a romanticized view of primitivism that has existed, mainly in literature and philosophy, since the 17th century in literature...back to the Roman Empire Age as a philosophy. Basically these theorists want to believe that man is good and virtuous if left without modern technology or the trappings of (then) modern society. It wasn't all related to American Indians - but primitive people in Asia and Africa, and even Scottish Highlanders.

There are philosophers that believe that "man is good" in it's base state of primitivism, likewise then we have "Lord of the Flies". But look at it more of a caricature for pop-culture needs to believe in a simple view. For awhile the concepts of the noble savage existed side-by-side with the concepts of the brutal savage. A balanced view was seen as much to confusing a concept for people to comprehend in the setting of a story. However, no society, primitive or not, has a monopoly on virtue...or brutality.

Last edited by Dd714; 04-10-2017 at 11:07 AM..
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Old 04-10-2017, 02:04 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,421 posts, read 16,517,194 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
American Indians are human too. They made war on each other. Their wars are not recorded in writing any where. A final fact; American Indians were ultimately conquered, just the way some race from a nearby star may someday give us blankets with one of their virulent diseases.
One time I was trading music with someone whose screen name identified him as a member of the "Haida Gwai" tribe of British Columbia (and nearby Washington). I asked about the Tlingits and Kwakiutls. He said that there were constantly at war with the Haida tribe.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:35 PM
 
12,586 posts, read 8,816,051 times
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Why do we idealize ....?


Because most people have no concept of how hard life really is without our modern capabilities. They have a totally false image of "living in harmony with nature" when the reality was about survival.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonyafd View Post
...
You might look at American Indians in a second more plausible way. American Indians didn't strip mine the Earth to pull its resources out of the ground. Their settlements were in fact more in tune with nature.
.

The only reason they didn't strip mine is they didn't have the technology at the time. Neither did colonists for the truth of the matter. But if you take the whole colonization thing away, at some point they would have reached a technological level that required and allowed strip mining and they would have done it gladly.
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:27 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,421 posts, read 16,517,194 times
Reputation: 29600
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why do we idealize ....?

Because most people have no concept of how hard life really is without our modern capabilities. They have a totally false image of "living in harmony with nature" when the reality was about survival.
Some people mistake worshiping earth or sun gods with being in harmony with nature. It was probably more abject fear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The only reason they didn't strip mine is they didn't have the technology at the time. Neither did colonists for the truth of the matter. But if you take the whole colonization thing away, at some point they would have reached a technological level that required and allowed strip mining and they would have done it gladly.
Not even the Aztecs, Mayas or Incas had progressed to the point of developing the wheel. Gettign to the point of strip mining would have taken a long time.
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