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Old 05-05-2017, 07:16 PM
 
2,631 posts, read 2,035,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Did you live there?
( Because if you DID, you'd know that it's not true.)
It is what it is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ion_per_capita

The fact that GDP per capita in the USSR was less than half of what it was in capitalist systems tells the rest of the story.
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:58 PM
 
26,720 posts, read 22,316,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Return2FL View Post
What "alcohol consumption" in today's Russia has got to do with the USSR?

Quote:
The fact that GDP per capita in the USSR was less than half of what it was in capitalist systems tells the rest of the story.
Quote:
It was a huge problem. Of those 10 people, one might have had the skill set to be a doctor, another an engineer, two more might have been teachers, another a baker and another two might been accomplished tradesmen. Maybe three of them were only cut out to change light bulbs or take out the trash, but if they were efficient about it, more light bulbs would have gotten changed and more trash would have been taken out.
Oh boy... your understanding of differences is so limited, so pre-programmed if I can put it this way.
There are certain social aspects, that no GDPs or PPS can explain to you -( add there historic background of every respective country that determines different social needs too.)
See, to begin with - the way the labor organized is determined by the prime goals/interests of the state. Since the objectives/interests of every state is different, the outcome (labor/employment) will be different too.
In case of America, where the upper class is set on owning the world, "efficiency" becomes imperative, because obviously, the bigger return on investment is, the more money this class accumulates, and the more it accumulates, the more it can invest elsewhere around the world, thus making the world more dependent on it, and more obedient to American orders. In this case "efficiency" will be the word of the day, involving cutting corners, sacrificing quality in the process, employing the cheap labor in China or importing it from Mexico - you name it. And of course under these circumstances the whole approach to hiring/employment will be directed at squeezing as much productivity from every employer as possible, and treating labor as disposable/replaceable for lower pay whenever possible, including making one person to complete a job of two or three workers.
That's because as I've said the state has certain objectives in mind, and looking at the country's historic background and human resources ( constant immigration from third world countries - i.e. additional surplus of cheap labor,) the state hopes that it can achieve its objectives this way.

Now Soviet State had its objectives too, and taking in consideration the country's background and demographics ( which are indeed different from the US,) the labor/employment approach were obviously different as well.
To begin with - Russia had ( still has) much lower ratio of men to women, even because for wars alone, that America has been spared from, and of course Soviet Russia was not a destination for international immigration either. So for its size, the USSR was sparsely populated (may be apart from its Asian part,) so keeping the demographics adequate was one of the top priorities for the Soviet government. With that, the women were a major workforce ( unlike in America) AND at the same time they were expected to raise the families - often without a man. So since the child-bearing was very much wanted and encouraged by the government, of course the whole employment process/objective was different than in the US. It was more about keeping as many people employed as possible ( women in particular) than "efficiency." So there you have "10 people putting in the light bulb."
I am not even sure why you are saying that "one might have had the skill set to be a doctor, another an engineer, two more might have been teachers, another a baker," because Soviet Union had plenty of workers in those categories as well, yet of course a lot of bureaucratic jobs were created too, for lower pay, particularly for women to stay employed while raising children.
So as I've said, every state had its own priorities, and for the Soviet Union it was not about taking over the world, but staying afloat; thus - different employment objectives.



Quote:
It was a terrible waste of resources and even worse, it stripped people of their dignity, their dreams, their achievements.
Again - you project your own wishes/dreams/desires onto other ( and fairly unfamiliar to you) people.
What do you know about understanding of "dignity" and "dreams" of Russians?
SOME of them - yes, you can relate to, but many other - you won't be able to relate to them AT ALL.
For them "dignity" was to not to work for any private owner, for any "capitalist." They were happy to work for the state, even if they didn't have much.
That's just an example.
See, the difference between me and you is that I don't project my own "wants and needs" onto others, and that's how I have a more objective picture.
Did I like Soviet system while living there?
I disliked it a big deal, but that doesn't preclude me from understanding why a lot of people were quite happy with it.

Last edited by erasure; 05-05-2017 at 10:06 PM..
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:43 PM
 
26,720 posts, read 22,316,532 times
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^
*Sorry it was "employee" in this particular sentence - "And of course under these circumstances the whole approach to hiring/employment will be directed at squeezing as much productivity from every employer as possible,"
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Old 05-06-2017, 02:21 AM
 
Location: Warren, OH
2,744 posts, read 4,214,425 times
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EVERYTHING is wrong with Nazism. I challenge anyone to present a socially redeeming attribute of Nazi rule.

Communism and socialism depend upon who is in charge.
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Old 05-06-2017, 03:24 AM
 
1,473 posts, read 1,317,519 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Absolutely.
And to be quiet honest, this was the main reason behind the downfall of the USSR - too many incompetent people in decisive positions ( that it took 10 persons to place a light bulb was a much lesser problem.)
But look at today's capitalist Russia.
Because of all the "connections" and plain nepotism, you see the same picture - a lot of incompetent people end up in position of power yet again.
So the question then is - is it really the inseparable part of "Communism," or in fact a feature that simply characterizes the nation that hosts "Communism"?


Some say that Communism was some sort of Neo-Tzarism.

But even with all those ills affecting Russian economy nowdays, the country will be 100 times more efficient.

The other cause of communist decadence was motivation. You can't have very brilliant scientists and technicians working just to receive a Volga or a Lada in five years, or a Television or washing machine...or the right to buy one of those soviet buildings...kruschovas for an exhorbitant price,,,discounted from your meager salary....while apparatchniks were always in the west..

Then corruption under the form of privileges...and money abroad, corruption...

And then, plain pilfering, maintaining East Europe, Cuba, Vietnam....giving away gas and oil free..or almost free as never was paid.

Then, large part of the proceeds of diamonds, caviar, rare metals always ended in the west....and not many people know that there were soviet republics that were havens of absolute corruption..
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Old 05-06-2017, 03:37 AM
 
1,473 posts, read 1,317,519 times
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But the Russian history has been so manipulated.....
Russia in 1917 was, among other things, a very powerful industrial power and their culture, writers, musicians and gastronomy were among the top in Europe. Yes, there were gross inequalities, but "proletarians" were not a problem..a gross manipulation here.
Russia was so powerful that Germany was afraid of Russian industry, that's why Germans packed Lenin in a protected train to Russia, to destroy the country.
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Live in NY, work in CT
11,252 posts, read 18,760,431 times
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Probably because Communism focused a little bit less on killing people just for who they are/were born as. Killing people for disagreeing with their ideology is not really better than that but when viewed through a "fine line" may be perceived as just a little bit "better". While Stalin hated Jews almost as much as Hitler and Jews were surpressed by most of the Communist leaders almost as much as they were under the Nazis (I remember as kid in the 70s/early 80s attending a couple of annual rallies in NYC about Russia violating the rights of Jews and demanding to let them leave the Soviet Union) denying job opportunities and throwing into gulags is still considered one step below mass murder and genocide. Ironically some (but certainly nowhere near the majority as many bigots and white supremists would have you believe) Jews were involved in the early days of Communist Russia (Leon Trotsky the most notable example, Lenin himself had one Jewish grandparent as another).
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Old 05-06-2017, 08:26 AM
 
9,344 posts, read 6,897,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warren zee View Post
EVERYTHING is wrong with Nazism. I challenge anyone to present a socially redeeming attribute of Nazi rule.

Communism and socialism depend upon who is in charge.
They were first to launch anti smoking campaigns. They built the autobahn and gave us VW as an auto manufacturer. The v2 rocket and many former nazi scientists helped pave the way for space travel and trip to the moon.
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Old 05-06-2017, 01:24 PM
 
Location: The Carolinas
2,511 posts, read 2,804,026 times
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Follow the money. Always. Communism is a great idea, they just haven't put the right person in charge yet (as in, me)
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Old 05-06-2017, 01:51 PM
509
 
6,322 posts, read 6,968,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damba View Post
It's primarily due to lack of education on what transpired in some cases. YMMV.

FWIW, my in-laws from Poland survived both invasions. They commented that as bad as it was to be taken over by Hitler's evil soldiers, the Russian (communist) occupation was far worse. The psychological warfare used to wipe out formerly 'free' aspects of society, stamp out religious and cultural practices, made life hellish in a different way, longer term.
My father lived under Lenin and Stalin as well as Hitler.

He much preferred the Germans to the Soviets.

The Elites in America were rather taken by the Soviets during the 1930's. The New York Times refused to report on the murder of 10 million Ukrainians during the early 1930's. I guess that was news that was NOT fit to print!!!

So I find many Americans have no idea of the number of people that died under Communism. It was never reported in the US media.

We have people in Seattle that put up a statue of Lenin. They find it funny!!! They would never think of doing that with a statue of Hitler.
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