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Old 06-30-2017, 06:49 PM
 
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Spain is as softer than the Italians. We could have sent the Navajo nation and they would have folded.
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Old 07-01-2017, 04:18 PM
 
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Well, one could argue that Spain assisted the Axis war effort in every way possible, despite how often Franco spoke of Spain's “strict neutrality” and later on “non-belligerency". And there should be little doubt that Franco was pro-Axis as were his closest advisers within the Falange. To put an even finer point on it, Franco was pro-Italy/Mussolini. He had a great personal affinity for Mussolini and felt that Spain and Italy’s shared Latin heritage and Catholic roots made them natural allies. And like Mussolini, Franco had dreams of re-establishing the glory of Spain and the empire that she had lost. But Franco realized early on that the real power player was Germany so he did as much as he possibly could to curry favor with Hitler. Unfortunately at this juncture, Hitler had no real interest in Spain or the Mediterranean. So in the lead up to the war, Franco set about rebuilding his relationships with Britain and France who had long been Spain’s most important trading partners.

All of this changed in May 1940 with the German invasion of France. Seeing an opportunity, Franco dispatched one of his senior generals, Juan Vigon, to Berlin on June 3, 1940. Franco wanted to determine what Spain might be able to get out of Germany in exchange for Spanish entry into the war. Preoccupied with finishing off France, Hitler delayed the meeting with General Vigon until June 16th. In the interim, the French forces began to rapidly collapse and Italy formally declared war against France on June 10th. Hoping to further his chances with Hitler, Franco publicly declared his support for Germany and Italy in their war against the Allies. This was taken as a sure sign by outside observers that Spain fully intended to join the Axis side. When Vigon and Hitler did meet, Vigon offered up what it would take for Spain to become an Axis partner: Gibraltar, French Morrocco, and part of Algeria, plus massive military and economic assistance to bring Spain into a war ready mode. Hitler was rather cold to this laundry list of requests, largely because Italy had her eyes set on obtaining the same territories that Spain so desired. Feeling that Britain would fold relatively soon anyway, Hitler basically said “thanks, but no thanks”.

Franco was hardly idle during the intervening months. Serious consideration was given to taking advantage of the defeat of France and sending an invasion force into French Morocco. Unfortunately for Franco, the Vichy government had successfully lobbied the Germans to be allowed to keep their forces in North Africa armed and intact. Add to that the request from France for Spain to mediate armistice terms with Germany, and Franco was placed in a position where any major moves into Morocco were out of the question. Franco then went after the one prize that he could obtain with little effort; the city of Tangier which was then being administered by a multinational panel. Franco claimed it was to guarantee the safety and neutrality of the city, but it was just an easy prize that could be taken without fear of Allied opposition.

October 1940 marked the last major push by Germany to bring Spain into the Axis. During a meeting between Spanish envoy Ramon Serrano Suner and German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, a general agreement was reached that Spain would enter the war once she had resolved her current economic difficulties. Germany would be given certain economic concessions in Spanish Morocco and take over investments that Britain and France had in Spain. Ribbentrop then mentioned that Germany would very much like to take over one of the Canary Islands for use as both a naval and air base, and perhaps even one of the islands off the coast of Spanish Guinea. In addition, Germany expected to be given bases in Morocco. Suner made it clear that Spain would not give up any of it’s territory under any circumstances.

During the meeting between Franco and Hitler at Hendaye on October 23, 1940, Franco repeated the requests originally relayed to Hitler by General Vigon. By now, Hitler had pretty much made up his mind that the territory that Spain desired would remain under the control of the Vichy government. Vichy had clearly demonstrated their willingness to fend of militarily any moves by Free French and British forces to take over France’s North African colonies, so Hitler saw no reason to offend what he considered a much stronger ally then Spain could ever be. He briefly considered flat out lying and promising the territory in question to Italy, Spain and Vichy France, but he rejected the idea. In the end, Hitler offered nothing as did Franco, so the only thing that resulted from the meeting was a vague agreement that Spain would enter the war when it wanted to.

Franco attempted several times to re-open negotiations in the weeks after the Hendaye meeting, but those efforts went nowhere, so Franco finally decided to stay out of the Axis and the war. Germany made one more try at bringing Spain into the war in February 1941. The deal discussed would have allowed Germany to attack Gibraltar with Spanish assistance and allowed Germany to use some Spanish islands as bases. A plan, code named “Operation Felix”, was even drawn up for the assault on Gibraltar. But once again, Hitler would not commit to meet any of Spain’s demands, so the deal died. And with “Operation Barbarossa” at the forefront of his mind, Hitler completely lost interest in gaining Spain as a war partner.

The failure to reach a deal with Germany did not end Spain’s enthusiasm for the war or her willingness to assist Germany in any way she could. Spanish citizens were allowed to go to work in German war factories. Vital shipments of tungsten were sent streaming across the border into Vichy France and onward to Germany. Thousands of Spanish men volunteered to serve in the Blue Division for the all important fight against Communism taking place in the Soviet Union. Spanish intelligence operatives worked hand and hand with their German and Italian colleagues. The fall of Stalingrad, the decimation of the Spanish "Blue Division", and serious restrictions in oil shipments from the U.S. all convinced Franco that it was time to revert back to “strict neutrality”. Bit by bit, the ties with Germany were cut and by early 1944, Spain no longer had any connection with Germany. Interestingly, Spain almost entered the war in April 1945, though on the side of the Allies. Franco was enraged by the destruction of Spanish property in the Philippines and the killings of hundreds of Spanish citizens at the hands of retreating Japanese troops. However, it was made clear to Franco by the Allies, that such a declaration of war would be viewed as “too little, too late” to make up for his previous four years of assistance to Germany, so he ultimately decided against it.

In the end, Spain staying out of the war it can be directly traced to his inability to strike a deal that would have enabled Spain to once again become a major military power and restore her faded glory. It is actually fortunate for Franco that such a deal was never reached anyway. Other than access to Gibraltar, Spain had little to offer the Axis and would have been able to contribute virtually nothing of value to the war effort other than poorly trained and equipped soldiers to feed into the Eastern Front meat grinder.
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Old 07-02-2017, 02:10 AM
 
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Uffff.....Franco never intended to join the Axis, he was a general that won a war, not a lieutenant. He knew Hitler was going to lose, he told Hitler himself.


Spain was not neutral, but "not belligerant".

What enraged Franco more was the invasion of Poland. He was deeply Catholic.
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Old 07-02-2017, 03:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by papuolo View Post
Uffff.....Franco never intended to join the Axis, he was a general that won a war, not a lieutenant. He knew Hitler was going to lose, he told Hitler himself.


Spain was not neutral, but "not belligerant".
Amazing. Every time Franco, Spain, and the Axis are mentioned in a thread, someone (usually with a Spanish sounding screen name) pops up trying to paint Franco as some cunning trickster with the power of Nostradamus who, through his brilliance, played Hitler for a fool because he knew that Germany could never win the war. Talk about not letting oneself be confused with the facts.

Well, here's some facts for you to try and wrap your fairy tale around. At the meeting between Hitler and Franco at Hendaye (which Franco requested) he stated "Spain would gladly fight at Germany's side". Foreign Minister Serrrano Suner stated after the war that had Hitler guaranteed at this meeting that French Morocco would be given to Spain, then Franco, who was obsessed with this territory, would have pledged to enter the Axis and the war, immediately.

On January 20, 1941 at a meeting with the German ambassador, Franco, stung by the insinuation that he no longer had faith in the Axis cause said that "his faith in the victory of Germany was still the same" and that "it was not a question at all whether Spain would enter the war, that had been decided at Hendaye. It was merely a question of when". On January 23rd, he reinforced this statement saying that he believed strongly in the Axis cause out of thanks for what Germany and Italy had done for him during the Civil War, and that he had not moved "one millimeter from his Germanophile course".

During a meeting between Franco and Mussolini on February 13th, Franco said "Spain wishes to enter the war, her fear is to enter too late". He followed up by stating "Spanish entry into the war depends on Germany more than Spain herself: the sooner Germany sends help, the sooner Spain will make her contribution to the Fascist world cause".

At a commemoration on July 17, 1941 marking the fifth anniversary of the start of the Civil War, Franco gave a fiery speech in which he praised the German invasion of Russia saying "at this moment when the German armies lead the battle for which Europe and Christianity have for so many years longed, and in which the blood of our youth is to mingle with that of our comrades of the Axis. I do not harbour any doubt about the result of the war. The die is cast and the first battle was won here in Spain. The war is lost for the Allies". When Foreign Minister Suner met with the German ambassador shortly after the speech, Suner expressed a belief that Franco might have gone too far, exposing to the British and Americans "the true position of Spain". Suner went on to say that up until now, the Allies believed that he was the one trying to push Franco into joining the Axis, while Franco was carefully and skillfully playing the Germans in order to maintain Spain's neutrality and keep it out of Hitler's grasp. Suner concluded, correctly, "that illusion has now been taken from them".

Now contrast Franco's statements with those made by Hitler with respect to Spain joining the Axis and entering the war. On September 28, 1940, Hitler met with Italian Foreign Minister Galeazzo Ciano. He summed up thusly the initial proposal offered by Foreign Minister Suner to guarantee Spanish assistance in the war effort: Germany would supply all the food, fuel, military equipment, and all the troops and weapons needed to seize Gibraltar and French Morocco in exchange for a promise of Spanish friendship. He ended the discussion by saying "as a German, one feels toward the Spanish almost like a Jew, who wants to make business out of the holiest possessions of mankind" adding that he was against Spain entering the war "because it would cost more than it is worth". After spending nine hours meeting with Franco at Hendaye, Hitler found the whole endeavor so pointless, he told Mussolini "Rather than go through that again, I would prefer to have 3 or 4 teeth taken out". And Hitler's attitude toward Spanish intervention never really changed. Yes, he did attempt at certain points to try and get Franco to commit something, anything, to aiding the Axis cause. But his efforts were lackluster at best because there was no real upside to having Spain join the war.

Additionally, you speak of Franco being a general who won a war. Which war are you talking about? The Rif War in Morocco that cost Spain 45,000 men, $540 million dollars and required French assistance to defeat a Berber tribal warlord? Or the failed coup that blew up into a full fledged civil war that couldn't be won without the help of Germany and Italy?

The bottom line is that Franco was nothing but a cheap opportunist who wanted a very big something for a whole lot of nothing and survived the war, not through sheer cunning and foresight, but because Hitler was never dumb enough to pay the extortion rate Franco was asking. If Franco really wanted to be neutral he could have done exactly what his fellow Fascist in Portugal, Salazar, did...declare it outright, stick to it, keep his head down, mouth shut, and wait for the war to end. Instead he tried to dance with the Devil and got caught at it. Which is why, as punishment, the Allies and their friends treated Spain as a pariah state after the war and prevented Spain from entering the U.N. until 1955.

So if you want to believe myth over reality, go right ahead. But that doesn't mean the rest of us will drink the Kool-aid along with you.
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Old 07-03-2017, 07:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by MinivanDriver View Post
Well, that's not exactly accurate. He allowed Spanish volunteers to form a division to fight for the Germans, but only under the condition that they would only fight the Soviets, not on the Western front or the Mediterranean.

Franco was beholden to Hitler for the material aid provided during the Spanish Civil War, so he did indeed start negotiations with Hitler to join the Axis. But his conditions were so extravagant that many believe that Franco was only stringing Hitler along rather than telling him "No" flat out.
I specified Operation Barbarossa. And those "Volunteers" - nice euphemism- did not make it there without Franco's consent.

So no, what I wrote was quite accurate.
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Old 07-03-2017, 08:37 AM
 
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Which don't precludes the premise that they were volunteers.
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Old 07-03-2017, 08:48 AM
 
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Originally Posted by papuolo View Post
Which don't precludes the premise that they were volunteers.
Yea I am sure the Eastern Front with its brutal winter and Wehrmacht weaponry was preferable to Spain with its sunshine, paellas, and notable lack of hostilities.
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Old 07-03-2017, 09:36 AM
 
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Are you referring to División Azul and later Legión Azul?
Volunteers. I've met several that are already dead.
Legión Azul remained voluntarily after Franco retreated División Azul, some defended Hitler's bunker until the end.
Both were volunteers.
Spain at that time had sun, flies and hunger, people were starving to death.

Last edited by papuolo; 07-03-2017 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 07-03-2017, 09:39 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I specified Operation Barbarossa. And those "Volunteers" - nice euphemism- did not make it there without Franco's consent.

So no, what I wrote was quite accurate.
They were volunteers, División Azul and Legión Azul.

Of course they could not make it there without Franco and Hitler consent (totalitarian countries), but they were volunteers and fought like heroes.

Last edited by papuolo; 07-03-2017 at 09:56 AM..
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Old 07-03-2017, 09:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Debnor View Post
Hypothetically speaking, had Spain not been dealing with all that they were during both WWI and WWII would their support have made much of a difference? Regardless if whether they were on the allies or axis side?


Spain made a fortune during the WWI selling to belligerents, the dance of millions, Had Spain helped Hitler, the country would have invaded at ended up with some sort of "democratic" government, another civil war..who knows?
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