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Old 09-21-2017, 06:16 AM
 
18,063 posts, read 25,155,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
Not sure if your link is intended to prove otherwise, but it reinforces the point over economics.
The South economy was heavily dependent on slavery
You make it sound as if slavery and economy are two different things
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:36 AM
 
32,006 posts, read 36,642,827 times
Reputation: 13269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Same old story,
I haven't seen ONE valid point to prove the civil war started because the South was defending state rights
The southern states wanted to preserve their right to continue slavery.

Slavery was the cornerstone of the Confederacy.

As their Vice President put it:

Quote:
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

https://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~ras27.../stephens.html
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
The southern states wanted to preserve their right to continue slavery.

Slavery was the cornerstone of the Confederacy.

As their Vice President put it:
It's true, they wanted to preserve slavery
It's wrong to say that "They were fighting for state rights"

Slavery was not under threat,
but Southern states said that the thread to slavery was "Northern states not returning runaway slaves"
What did the same do? Pass federal laws to force Northern states to return runaway slaves.

I'll put it very simple
South = Pushed federal government to protect the institution of slavery = Pro-Big government
North = Passed state laws to protect the free citizens of their states = Pro-State rights
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:54 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,894,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
The southern states wanted to preserve their right to continue slavery.

Slavery was the cornerstone of the Confederacy.

As their Vice President put it:
The last part of his speech:

Quote:
...I have been asked, what of the future? It has been apprehended by some that we would have arrayed against us the civilized world. I care not who or how many they may be against us, when we stand upon the eternal principles of truth, if we are true to ourselves and the principles for which we contend, we are obliged to, and must triumph. [Immense applause.]
After the Civil War, Mr. Stephens attempted to cover his tracks, albeit badly, although he didn't really change his tune ~ just enough to get the 'Lost Cause' revisionist narrative up & running, along with Jubal Early et al.

Here's the beginning ~ rest of the back tracking in entirety at link above:

Quote:
...As for my Savanna speech, about which so much has been said and in regard to which I am represented as setting forth “slavery” as the “corner-stone” of the Confederacy, it is proper for me to state that that speech was extemporaneous, the reporter’s notes, which were very imperfect, were hastily corrected by me; and were published without further revision and with several glaring errors. ...
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.natio...ard-brookhiser
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:18 AM
 
18,063 posts, read 25,155,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
The last part of his speech:
I give you a better one .... Declaration of secession of Texas


In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:21 AM
 
Location: The High Desert
16,063 posts, read 10,631,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
The South economy was heavily dependent on slavery
You make it sound as if slavery and economy are two different things
There were many spokes on the economic wheel of the southern states but slavery was the hub and the rim. Everything points to and was dependent upon slavery.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:39 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,894,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
I give you a better one .... Declaration of secession of Texas


In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
Mr. Stephens' Cornerstone Speech just echoed what had already been determined as their main guiding principles at the South Carolina secession convention in 1860. They all identified as 'Slave States' ~ their 'Declaration of the Causes of Secession' all state similar.

"The “anything but slavery” explanations gained traction only after the war, especially after 1890—at exactly the same time that Jim Crow laws became entrenched across the South. Thus when people wrote about secession influenced what they wrote."
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:55 AM
 
18,063 posts, read 25,155,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
Mr. Stephens' Cornerstone Speech just echoed what had already been determined as their main guiding principles at the South Carolina secession convention in 1860. They all identified as 'Slave States' ~ their 'Declaration of the Causes of Secession' all state similar.

"The “anything but slavery” explanations gained traction only after the war, especially after 1890—at exactly the same time that Jim Crow laws became entrenched across the South. Thus when people wrote about secession influenced what they wrote."
What are those other things?
Everything points to slavery (economy)

Last edited by Dopo; 09-21-2017 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,707 posts, read 79,533,896 times
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So the official declaration of what a war was about now determines what the war was about for all people involved, even those who opposed it?

So the Iraq war was about weapons of mass dstruction and eveyone involved or who allowed it favored going to war to eliminate WMDs.

The vietnam war was only about protectiing our allies and preventing the forcible spread of communisim.

Now lets look at the War with Mexico, wars on native Americans were all just to stop indian agression; Spanish American war. . . .

The official statement by some leader is the only reason for all wars and for everyone involved.

Huh, I though the world was more complicated than that. This is good to know. This idea especially heps to clarify and simplify understanding of the crusades.
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:57 PM
 
Location: North Pacific
15,755 posts, read 7,552,846 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
I give you a better one .... Declaration of secession of Texas


In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.
There's more to that. Just above your quoted material is ...

"They have, through the mails and hired emissaries, sent seditious pamphlets and papers among us to stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides. They have sent hired emissaries among us to burn our towns and distribute arms and poison to our slaves for the same purpose.
They have impoverished the slave-holding States by unequal and partial legislation, thereby enriching themselves by draining our substance.
They have refused to vote appropriations for protecting Texas against ruthless savages, for the sole reason that she is a slave-holding State." https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/aboutt.../2feb1861.html

The reason for this to have been included is explained in the Texas handbook online Almanac of the TSHA

"The diversity of the state slowed the secession process and helped to produce pockets of resistance to it." <sniped>
"Along the frontier the ability or inability of the United States Army to protect the citizens often influenced attitudes toward secession. Well-protected areas, where the army garrisons were also the best market for local goods and services, opposed secession. Poorly protected areas supported secession. Closely related to local needs and political parties was the role of individuals, particularly individual Unionists."

The Texas State Constitution of 1861 is equally a compelling document, "This constitution was as remarkable for what it did not do as for what it did. It did not legalize the resumption of the African slave trade, a move advocated by some leaders of the secession movement. It did not take an extreme position on the issue of states' rights. It did not substantially change any important law. It was a conservative document partly designed to allay fears of the radical nature of the secessionists and to ease the transition of Texas into the Confederacy."

People are messy. Politics are messy. People and their politics, now there's war. It was about economics, it was about the federal government's in ability to protect all the states, it was about slavery (a way of life) it was about all these things and more, and there isn't anything any one can do about it to take that away. Evolution in economics takes time, so does the evolution of social values.

One thing people fail to take into the account is the Bible and how important following Gods laws was to 'many of an' individual during and before that time. When they began to realize (can't wake 'em up to ask 'em) it seems that not everyone (the corruption of the slave trade industry) were on the same page as them, then those values came into question ... but then, not by every one as people are messy.
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