Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:22 AM
 
5,544 posts, read 8,291,796 times
Reputation: 11141

Advertisements

In my memory, school provided history was mostly a broad brush of facts (mostly timeline) that were tested. Maybe big picture, maybe somewhat prejudicial to a point of view.

True learning comes in self education and pursual of interests. For example, even in school an essay question or research paper can light an interest for further study. But certainly as we see more and understand more, then we can (as we have the time) further pursue whatever catches our interest.

So if this interest in the American Civil War is deep enough, I would suggest you turn to contemporary sources, internet research, and visits to archives and battlefields. So much can be learned of that battle and its significance on a battle field tour. I personally like Shelby Foote and James ? McPherson as historians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Morrison, CO
34,177 posts, read 18,482,484 times
Reputation: 25761
The Shelby Foote series on the Civil War was very well done, and worth watching.

https://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Vol.../dp/0394749138
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Grosse Ile Michigan
30,707 posts, read 79,581,771 times
Reputation: 39445
Lots of people will pontificate as if they know what people's motives were 150 years ago. BS.

Sorry, you do not get to actually know. You can read what some people wrote, but you do not even know whether their reasoning is set out fully in their public writings and that is just a few people. You can read all sorts of people's opinions. But you know what such opinions are like? Hint - everyone has one.

It appears many of the southerners and northerners do not know what they were fighting for. They were told to fight. They were told it is what is right. So they went. Many Northerners who fought apparently did not care about slavery, or did not want the slaves freed. Some southerners said they were fighting for their rights. Some did not seem know what that meant. Many did not own slaves and would have been better off if slavery were abolished. Many were drafted or shamed into joining. Some just wanted something to do, a chance to make a name for themselves. Money, food, adventure . . .

It is the same in modern times. How many people who went to Viet Nam or Iraq or afghanastan knew what it was really about? Who can say now what it was actually about? No one today can even agree what our wars of today were actually about. Do you really think there was uniform agreement about what the Civil war was about? People are complex. each person had their own reasons for participating or wanting the war, or feeling it was unavoidable.

In modern times we try to put everyone and everything into little boxes. We try to generalize about everything. It is stupid. If you want ot know what the war was about for person X, study them. Read their letters or diary. You might get an idea what it was about to that particular person. You conclusions might or might not be accurate.

Last edited by Coldjensens; 09-19-2017 at 10:17 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:35 AM
 
9,613 posts, read 6,903,985 times
Reputation: 6842
....and let's add Civil War discussions typically break down into a proxy argument over modern politics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:40 AM
 
9,613 posts, read 6,903,985 times
Reputation: 6842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldjensens View Post
Lots of people will pontificate as if they know what people's motives were 150 years ago. BS.

Sorry, you do not get to actually know. You can read what some people wrote, but you do not even know whether their reasoning is set out fully in their public writings and that is just a few people. You can read all sorts of people's opinions. But you know what such opinions are like? Hint - everyone has one.

It appears many of the southerners and northerners do not know what they were fighting for. They were told to fight. They were told it is what is right. So they went. Many Northerners who fought did not care about slavery, or did not want the slaves freed. Many southerners would ssay they were fighting for their rights. Lots did not know what that meant. Many did not own slaves and would have been better off if slavery were abolished. Many were drafted or shamed into joining. Some just wanted something to do, a chance to make a name for themselves. Money, food, adventure . . .

It is the same in modern times. How many people who went to Viet Nam or Iraq or afghanastan knew what it was really about? Who can say now what it was actually about? No one today can even agree what our wars of today were actually about. Do you really think there was uniform agreement about what the Civil war was about? People are complex. each person had their own reasons for participating or wanting the war, or feeling it was unavoidable.

In modern times we try to put everyone and everything into little boxes. We try to generalize about everything. It is stupid. If you want ot know what the war was about for person X, study them. Read their letters or diary. You might get an idea what it was about to that particular person. You conclusions might or might not be accurate.
Spot on post.
99% of the time which side you're enlisted in depends on where you were born.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:45 AM
 
12,076 posts, read 23,185,839 times
Reputation: 27198
You don't learn the whole story about anything in high school. What do you have, 300 years of US history compressed into how many hours of classroom time.

Yes, the South was "angry" of state's rights issues, particularly the right to own slaves. Read the secession documents of the Confederate States; you will clearly see that secession was about slavery.

Edit: It is easy to pontificate when participants clearly and voluminously wrote about their motivations and experiences in the war -- no one has to guess anything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:56 AM
 
2,957 posts, read 5,885,489 times
Reputation: 2286
Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkthekoolaid View Post
So full disclaimer to get my background where I'm posting from.... I have a "northern perspective and education"

So I've really become interested in the civil war lately and the more I've been learning the more interested I've become.

I remember in school basically being told more or less the war was about slavery and related issues and that's the way it was. Never gave a 2nd thought about it and just thought that's that.

The more I read and learn I'm really challenging what I thought I knew. And I'm curious to get some more opinions on this topic or get some more books or documentaries recommended to me.

I also just visited Gettysburg this year and that's what really got me down the rabbit hole of the civil war.

Looking at everything I've learned so far it seems the cause of the civil war is so much more complex than I realized. Even reading Lincoln's inaugural address in 1861 he specifically mentions not trying to stop slavery in the South and its not his intention (I'm paraphrasing)

And that most people in the South readily admitted that they feel slavery would have naturally ended on its own.

The union still allowed border states like West virginia, Delaware, Kentucky to stay in the union and support the union cause AND remain slave states. That right there says the war did not originally start as a means to end slavery when the union allows its own states to continue on with slavery.

Like 97% of southern soldiers were far to poor to ever have slaves. Even some of the more aristocratic ones, for example Thomas Jackson actually went out of his way to teach slaves to read and write and helped build a Sunday school for them. I couldn't believe when I learned one of the confederates most famous generals was teaching slaves to read and write and with respect. It was quite a surprise for me to learn.

Lincoln only gave the emancipation proclamation addrssing slaves in confederate territory deliberately to undermine the south's economy, and to sow discontent and unrest.

Definitely didn't learn these things in school.

It's really changed how I look at the war.

I am really thinking that American civil war Was the South being angry and feeling mistreated over states rights issues. It's far more complex than I realized. And I am now viewing the confederacy differently than I did before. The North invaded to beat the South back into submission to preserve the union not to stop slavery, that became a method to inflict pain on the southern economy.

I've read/watched all the usuals...the killer angels, God's and generals, gettysburg, glory, (still have to read the last full measure) and I think It's called blue and grey? And others Etc..

If you guys have any interesting points or feedback let me know. I'm always willing to reevaluate and learn.

If you have any book or movie / mini series recommendations let me know
I'm not a Civil War buff, but no war is ever over one issue and both sides have good and bad guys. That doesn't mean slavery wasn't a major part of the reason for Southern secession.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 09:57 AM
Status: "117 N/A" (set 2 days ago)
 
12,920 posts, read 13,611,483 times
Reputation: 9673
I don't think Sumner was bludgeoned nearly to death by Brooks in the senate over state's rights. The issue was something that could not be resolved by the courts or the legislative process. It was over who had the moral high ground. The church was even divided over the issue.

In many school systems today the Civil War is taught in middle school and in some upper elementary. This is hardly the age where all the complex issues can be evaluated. It easy to teach that the war was over this or that but it's hard to teach why that issue was so important as to make US military generals go to war and fight each other

Last edited by thriftylefty; 09-19-2017 at 10:10 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 10:08 AM
 
9,613 posts, read 6,903,985 times
Reputation: 6842
Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty View Post
I don't think Sumner was bludgeoned nearly to death by Brooks in the senate over state's rights. The issue was something that could not be resolved by the courts or the legislative process. It was over who had the moral high ground and even the church was divided over the issue also.
I doubt morality has much to do with it. It almost always comes down to economics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-19-2017, 10:20 AM
Status: "117 N/A" (set 2 days ago)
 
12,920 posts, read 13,611,483 times
Reputation: 9673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
I doubt morality has much to do with it. It almost always comes down to economics.
Morality was indeed one of the issues. Abolitionist charged pro slavery proponents with being too comfortable owning women and pro slavery proponents charge abolitionist with wanting to marry black women. Some historians say that once Southern Gentlemen were accused of being immoral there was no turning back.
There are many economist who also say that slavery was not an economic system but a social system ( see Ulrich Bonnell Phillips). In the book "Israel on the Appomattox" There were plantations that used "free labor" that proved to be more profitable.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top