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Old 09-27-2017, 11:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Treason remains treason. There is no right to treason (secede) because you don't like the President. True in Lincoln's time as much as Obama's and Trump's. End of discussion.
Gotta keep your eye on the cost/benefit of suppressing such “treason”. Even the British knew when to call it quits and they’re still doing well.

I think it goes back to economics, otherwise the US is the pot calling the kettle black on the treason argument.
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Old 09-27-2017, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Caribou, Me.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Treason remains treason. There is no right to treason (secede) because you don't like the President. True in Lincoln's time as much as Obama's and Trump's. End of discussion.
You understand little about the entire history of the founding of the country and the core role that Federalism once played in it. In 1790, it would have been widely understood that an area could secede from the country. There would not have even been much controversy or discussion about the idea.

But by 1860, Lincoln's sophistry ("a house divided against itself can not stand") helped to put the nail in the coffin of the concept of Federalism. (Lincoln's expression was a non sequitur; it literally means nothing but sounds profound).

Yes, the South did not like Lincoln. But to suggest that's all that it was is beyond shallow. This whole thing had been brewing since Lincoln was a baby.

I always admired Lincoln very much, until recent years. Now I see that he he did, indeed, have totalitarian impulses (like most "leaders"). He sacrificed hundreds of thousands of young men and women and children for his political ideals. Even if you agree with those ideals, that is a fact. In my opinion, he should have let the South go (obviously slavery would have eventually died out and I am fairly certain that the South would have eventually rejoined the U.S. And if not, well, areas split off and become new countries all the time in this world).
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:33 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
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Default A House divided against itself cannot stand.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
I’m speculating. I have no idea why the US wanted so much land to begin with, but there’s a difference between potential territories with few settlers in it and developed states with differing ideologies and established economies who are voting participants in the federal government.

People talk endlessly about why the South seceded, but nobody seems to give a straight answer on why the North wanted it so much (so much so they were willing to destroy its infrastructure and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of soldiers to do so). Just “preserving the union” seems like a shallow answer.
In his house divided speech, Lincoln said "I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided". The House of course was the Union and because of the Union the American people had grown prosperous and were protected from foreign invasion.
This is the reason why the USA was able to maintain such a small army for much of its history.

WARFARE - Once you begin breaking up the Union into smaller countries you begin to see them begin to seek security by raising armies, forts, alliances, balance of power politics etc. European powers might begin to interfere in North America and try to turn the states against each other. People have speculated what would have happened if the Confederacy had been allowed to break free. For instance, Harry Turtledove wrote several books on the topic and he suggested that the Union (Northern States) might very well become allied to Imperial Germany and Germany would have won WW1!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_War_(series)

CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUES - There are other serious issues involved. For instance, once you admit that it is ok for the Southern states to secede, what is to stop every state from seceding? The United States, and the Confederacy for that matter, may very well have broken up entirely into individual states. Sought of like the way the German and Italian states were divided for so long and Germany and Italy were the playground for foreign armies.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:33 PM
 
18,039 posts, read 25,055,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
People talk endlessly about why the South seceded, but nobody seems to give a straight answer on why the North wanted it so much (so much so they were willing to destroy its infrastructure and sacrifice hundreds of thousands of soldiers to do so). Just “preserving the union” seems like a shallow answer.
Dude,
4 posts before your post I answered this question


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Easy answer ... without looking it up = wealth/money

I just did a quick search

Cotton and the Civil*War | Mississippi History Now

On the eve of the American Civil War in the mid-1800s cotton was America’s leading export, and raw cotton was essential for the economy of Europe. The cotton industry was one of the world’s largest industries, and most of the world supply of cotton came from the American South. This industry, fueled by the labor of slaves on plantations, generated huge sums of money for the United States and influenced the nation’s ability to borrow money in a global market. In many respects, cotton’s financial and political influence in the 19th century can be compared to that of the oil industry in the early 21st century.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Dude,
4 posts before your post I answered this question
Yes and I agreed with you right after that.
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:16 PM
 
2,799 posts, read 3,145,917 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy100 View Post
Gotta keep your eye on the cost/benefit of suppressing such “treason”. Even the British knew when to call it quits and they’re still doing well.

I think it goes back to economics, otherwise the US is the pot calling the kettle black on the treason argument.
Totally different situation. The states voluntarily joined the Union. It became indivisible after 3/4 joined which I think was in 1790 or so. Don't become a state in the Union if you plan to commit treason by seceding. The colonies never voluntarily "joined" the UK. It's not hard to understand the treason and call it out for what it is. Give it a try.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Totally different situation. The states voluntarily joined the Union. It became indivisible after 3/4 joined which I think was in 1790 or so. Don't become a state in the Union if you plan to commit treason by seceding. The colonies never voluntarily "joined" the UK. It's not hard to understand the treason and call it out for what it is. Give it a try.
Then they voluntarily opted out. It's more like the European Union. Or at least that's how it was envisioned. "Brexit" isn't considered treason.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Atlanta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord View Post
Totally different situation. The states voluntarily joined the Union. It became indivisible after 3/4 joined which I think was in 1790 or so. Don't become a state in the Union if you plan to commit treason by seceding. The colonies never voluntarily "joined" the UK. It's not hard to understand the treason and call it out for what it is. Give it a try.
Not hard to understand at all.
If you win, its called a revolution.
If you lose, its called Treason.

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Old 09-27-2017, 04:11 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
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Much of the history was written by the victors and they emphasized it was about slavery to make themselves look good about what they did. Ending slavery was the best thing to come out of the war so there is also the ideal of looking for the good in things and well they didn't all die for nothing because the slaves were freed (a good thing)
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:58 PM
 
18,039 posts, read 25,055,259 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
Much of the history was written by the victors and they emphasized it was about slavery to make themselves look good about what they did. Ending slavery was the best thing to come out of the war so there is also the ideal of looking for the good in things and well they didn't all die for nothing because the slaves were freed (a good thing)
You also have the losers pushing the idea that they weren't fighting for slavery
Even though all the seceding articles say that that's why they seceded
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