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Old 10-12-2017, 08:00 AM
 
Location: SW MO
1,127 posts, read 1,268,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkthekoolaid View Post
So full disclaimer to get my background where I'm posting from.... I have a "northern perspective and education"

So I've really become interested in the civil war lately and the more I've been learning the more interested I've become.

I remember in school basically being told more or less the war was about slavery and related issues and that's the way it was. Never gave a 2nd thought about it and just thought that's that.

The more I read and learn I'm really challenging what I thought I knew. And I'm curious to get some more opinions on this topic or get some more books or documentaries recommended to me.

I also just visited Gettysburg this year and that's what really got me down the rabbit hole of the civil war.

Looking at everything I've learned so far it seems the cause of the civil war is so much more complex than I realized. Even reading Lincoln's inaugural address in 1861 he specifically mentions not trying to stop slavery in the South and its not his intention (I'm paraphrasing)

And that most people in the South readily admitted that they feel slavery would have naturally ended on its own.

The union still allowed border states like West virginia, Delaware, Kentucky to stay in the union and support the union cause AND remain slave states. That right there says the war did not originally start as a means to end slavery when the union allows its own states to continue on with slavery.

Like 97% of southern soldiers were far to poor to ever have slaves. Even some of the more aristocratic ones, for example Thomas Jackson actually went out of his way to teach slaves to read and write and helped build a Sunday school for them. I couldn't believe when I learned one of the confederates most famous generals was teaching slaves to read and write and with respect. It was quite a surprise for me to learn.

Lincoln only gave the emancipation proclamation addrssing slaves in confederate territory deliberately to undermine the south's economy, and to sow discontent and unrest.

Definitely didn't learn these things in school.

It's really changed how I look at the war.

I am really thinking that American civil war Was the South being angry and feeling mistreated over states rights issues. It's far more complex than I realized. And I am now viewing the confederacy differently than I did before. The North invaded to beat the South back into submission to preserve the union not to stop slavery, that became a method to inflict pain on the southern economy.

I've read/watched all the usuals...the killer angels, God's and generals, gettysburg, glory, (still have to read the last full measure) and I think It's called blue and grey? And others Etc..

If you guys have any interesting points or feedback let me know. I'm always willing to reevaluate and learn.

If you have any book or movie / mini series recommendations let me know
Funny how learning of facts destroys false narratives and alters perspective...
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:47 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,478 posts, read 59,552,077 times
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One of the goals of the American Civil War was to replace the aristocratic plantation society of the south with the industrial meritocracy of the North. It was to replace the slave society with a workers society. Unfortunately for the country the Reconstruction was ended before it could be completed. Thus we still have a society in the /south that believes that "freedom" is provided by the "Massa" and not by a person's own virtue and hard work.
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Old 10-12-2017, 09:15 AM
 
Location: Atlanta
6,793 posts, read 5,630,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
One of the goals of the American Civil War was to replace the aristocratic plantation society of the south with the industrial meritocracy of the North. It was to replace the slave society with a workers society. Unfortunately for the country the Reconstruction was ended before it could be completed. Thus we still have a society in the /south that believes that "freedom" is provided by the "Massa" and not by a person's own virtue and hard work.

The Bolded part is simply false!
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:50 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,107 posts, read 13,124,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
Tell me about it........Scotlands part in the war was well covered up for years.. its only recently were being told about what went on... shameful when we should have been impartial.... money talks however.. sadly. https://history4everyone.wordpress.c...can-civil-war/

https://sonofskye.wordpress.com/2014...es-of-america/
I read something about Scotland and the American Civil War/Slavery a few years ago. I remember something about Glasgow being more pro-South and Edinburgh being more pro-North.

The question I have is - was the Scottish situation unique to Scotland or was it found in other parts of Europe and has not just been researched and brought to life?

I have read quite a few Civil War era books but very few go into detail about the foreign affairs situation. Which is strange when you think about it because if Britain and France had recognized the Confederacy, it might have changed the war completely.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:20 AM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,300,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
I read something about Scotland and the American Civil War/Slavery a few years ago. I remember something about Glasgow being more pro-South and Edinburgh being more pro-North.

The question I have is - was the Scottish situation unique to Scotland or was it found in other parts of Europe and has not just been researched and brought to life?

I have read quite a few Civil War era books but very few go into detail about the foreign affairs situation. Which is strange when you think about it because if Britain and France had recognized the Confederacy, it might have changed the war completely.
Manchester, England, was famously pro-Union. Check the footnotes to this article for books on the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ican_Civil_War

"A World on Fire:"

As Amanda Foreman, author of A World On Fire, an epic new history of Britain's involvement in The American Civil War, explains: "For some Scots there was definitely a sense of kinship with the South. It was a smaller nation with an obvious identity and cultural heritage that was sitting uneasily within a larger cultural identity and heritage and was seeking independence, so it's not surprising that the Scots had a love for the Confederacy. It really was a mix. The Paisley workers were pretty much for the North, but all the dockworkers on the Clyde were all for the South – there was a huge divide. You could say that Glasgow was more pro-South and Edinburgh was pro-North and Scotland, as a whole, was probably like the rest of Britain, and was more pro-North at the beginning and then became pro-South during the middle and then went back to pro-North at the end. The Scots had an enormous impact on the American Civil War."

Scots and the American Civil War: So whose side were we on? - The Scotsman

As discussed in the above article, blockade running was a major industry in Scotland during the Civil War.

France, due to its designs on Mexico was pro-Confederacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplom...ican_Civil_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussi...ican_Civil_War

Last edited by WRnative; 10-12-2017 at 11:31 AM..
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:37 PM
 
18,044 posts, read 25,080,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
One of the goals of the American Civil War was to replace the aristocratic plantation society of the south with the industrial meritocracy of the North. It was to replace the slave society with a workers society. Unfortunately for the country the Reconstruction was ended before it could be completed. Thus we still have a society in the /south that believes that "freedom" is provided by the "Massa" and not by a person's own virtue and hard work.
One word = myth

The Civil War was fought to preserve the union, not to change the South.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:05 PM
 
Location: SW MO
1,127 posts, read 1,268,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
One word = myth

The Civil War was fought to preserve the union, not to change the South.
Much like an abusive husband beats a wife into submission when she wants to leave. And just as sick.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:31 PM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 16 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,474 posts, read 16,559,118 times
Reputation: 29649
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
One of the goals of the American Civil War was to replace the aristocratic plantation society of the south with the industrial meritocracy of the North. It was to replace the slave society with a workers society. Unfortunately for the country the Reconstruction was ended before it could be completed. Thus we still have a society in the /south that believes that "freedom" is provided by the "Massa" and not by a person's own virtue and hard work.
I doubt that there was any conscious goal, ever, to industrialize the South. Indeed breeding new competitors would not have been in the North's interest. I am guessing that slavery become an issue as a result of disgust with enforcing fugitive slave laws, and to a lesser extent from idealistic abolotionists.

Before the advent of air conditioning the South, except parts of Virginia, were largely unsuited for industrialization.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:27 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,300,647 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy73 View Post
Much like an abusive husband beats a wife into submission when she wants to leave. And just as sick.
Sick?????

As one of the most contentious issues between the northern and southern states was slavery in the vast territories of the West, what do you think would have happened if the Confederacy had been allowed to establish itself as a separate country. A military conflict likely would have been inevitable. If the Confederacy had evolved like South Africa, it might have allied itself with Nazi Germany in WWII.

One of the goals of the Constitution and the Perpetual Union was to "insure domestic Tranquility" by replacing armed conflict among the states, so common in European history, with Constitutional solutions to conflicts and political differences. Indeed, within a few years of the end of the Civil War, the vast armies and the Union Navy were gone and the nation set out to rebuild and pay down its war debts. I imagine much larger standing armies would have been maintained in the Confederacy and the shrunken United States as well as large navies, if the Confederacy had won its independence. It would have been an immense burden, as we've experienced since the end of WWII when we chose to become the world's policeman.

The Confederate leaders certainly believed that they easily would win their revolution, gain independence, and preserve the institution of African American slavery. Few were the Sam Houstons warning realistically and accurately of the coming destruction:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCNB3Y5uBRQ

The Ohio River/Mississippi River basin also was an important trade route for the states of the former Northwest Territory. These states did not want the Mississippi under the control of a foreign, perhaps hostile nation.

Last edited by WRnative; 10-12-2017 at 06:08 PM..
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:15 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,300,647 times
Reputation: 7213
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I doubt that there was any conscious goal, ever, to industrialize the South. Indeed breeding new competitors would not have been in the North's interest. I am guessing that slavery become an issue as a result of disgust with enforcing fugitive slave laws, and to a lesser extent from idealistic abolotionists.

Before the advent of air conditioning the South, except parts of Virginia, were largely unsuited for industrialization.
The South did industrialize after the Civil War, often with northern capital as in the once very large textile industry.

Birmingham Iron and Steel Companies | Encyclopedia of Alabama
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