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Old 09-20-2017, 09:11 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
21,662 posts, read 25,620,272 times
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Judging from the posts on here from the people of the northern states, I don't think you are the only one who is ignorant of the facts that started the Civil War. It was basically economic.

Then there's the fictional book, UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.

I have quit listening to the lies. It happened more than 150 years ago. It is time to move forward without blame on either side. We don't need to be split again.

I am hoping some day those who are here because their ancestors were slaves will some day realize how lucky they are their ancestors were brought here instead of staying in a country where their fellow citizens sold them into slavery. In some of those countries selling young children into slavery is still going on.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:20 PM
 
2,018 posts, read 1,311,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I suppose you are unaware that you are making no sense. Your 90 % formula is your own invention, taken from the University of the Atmosphere, and backed by nothing beyond your assertion.

Further, a person studying the events of 1861-1865 would learn about General Butler's "contraband" policy concerning seizing runaway slaves, they would learn about the confiscation act passed by the US Congress, they would learn about the emancipation proclamation and ultimately the amendments which freed the slaves. That person would learn about President Lincoln's efforts to get the loyal slave states to cooperate with a compensated emancipation program, and getting turned down. That person would learn about the arming of former slaves by the North and the 11th hour attempt to do so as well by the South.

A person could learn all that, things someone who stopped studying the war after 1860, would not know about. And according to you, that person would "come out knowing nothing that matters about the Civil War other than the outcome."


So, as is manifest, your original statement is wrong. If you wish to have your positions taken seriously by anyone, you need to learn to avoid such sweeping and obvious absurdities.


You are correct; I should not have assigned a number to the relative importance of the events leading up to the war versus the events that occurred after. It was simple-minded on my part to use that rhetorical device. Rather than re-wrintg and re-posting my previous comment, I suggest that readers can in their mind replace "90%" with "almost all".


As for the rest of the things you mention, they are simply not important compared to the decades of events preceding the Civil War
A student needs to know:
how the British Somerset vs Stewart case played a role in the American Revolution,
The British abolitionist movement's effect on American opinion,
The Northern states abolitionist movement,
The international abolitionist movement and gains in the rest of the world.
To get a feel for the international forces in play, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...0.E2.80.931849
The 1807 Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves
The Treaty of Ghent's proviso concerning slave trade (and the West Africa Squadron)
Nullification Crisis
the Rachel v Walker and Dred Scott decisions as polarizing elements (Somerset all over again)
the land added by the Mexican-American war as a threat to Southern dominance of Congress,
The Wilmot proviso,
the Missouri Comprise,
the Compromise of 1850,
The Kansas-Nebraska Act
The Free Soil party rationale and slavocracy theory.
The effect of John Brown's raid and trial on Northern opinion and on Southern opinion,


Also, examine the theory that Southern slavery was more of a social system than an economic system, and consider how that affects arguments that it was really all about money.


The upshot of all these things is that when enough free states are added to the USA, slavery was going to be outlawed. And as events were going, slavery was going to be outlawed even without the civil war.
All the war accomplished was speeding up the inevitable and eliminating any reason to compromise with the South. What happened after 1861 pales in importance to the preceding events.


However, I must agree that there is value in studying events occurring during the war, but only after the preceding events are understood.
My advice to anyone intending to be a student of the Civil War: learn first the historical causes leading up to the war.
After that, then study battles, the Confiscation act, Emancipation proclamation, and so on.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:39 PM
 
18,126 posts, read 25,269,498 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Judging from the posts on here from the people of the northern states, I don't think you are the only one who is ignorant of the facts that started the Civil War. It was basically economics
https://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm%3Fid%3D251

The Southern lag in industrial development did not result from any inherent economic disadvantages. There was great wealth in the South, but it was primarily tied up in the slave economy. In 1860, the economic value of slaves in the United States exceeded the invested value of all of the nation's railroads, factories, and banks combined. On the eve of the Civil War, cotton prices were at an all-time high. The Confederate leaders were confident that the importance of cotton on the world market, particularly in England and France, would provide the South with the diplomatic and military assistance they needed for victory.

The Southern economy, while shaky throughout the war, grew markedly worse in its later years. The Emancipation Proclamation both enraged the South with its promise of freedom for their slaves, and threatened the very existence of its primary labor source.
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Old 09-20-2017, 11:04 PM
 
30,894 posts, read 36,941,290 times
Reputation: 34516
Quote:
Originally Posted by drinkthekoolaid View Post
So full disclaimer to get my background where I'm posting from.... I have a "northern perspective and education"

So I've really become interested in the civil war lately and the more I've been learning the more interested I've become.

I remember in school basically being told more or less the war was about slavery and related issues and that's the way it was. Never gave a 2nd thought about it and just thought that's that.

The more I read and learn I'm really challenging what I thought I knew. And I'm curious to get some more opinions on this topic or get some more books or documentaries recommended to me.

I also just visited Gettysburg this year and that's what really got me down the rabbit hole of the civil war.

Looking at everything I've learned so far it seems the cause of the civil war is so much more complex than I realized. Even reading Lincoln's inaugural address in 1861 he specifically mentions not trying to stop slavery in the South and its not his intention (I'm paraphrasing)

And that most people in the South readily admitted that they feel slavery would have naturally ended on its own.

The union still allowed border states like West virginia, Delaware, Kentucky to stay in the union and support the union cause AND remain slave states. That right there says the war did not originally start as a means to end slavery when the union allows its own states to continue on with slavery.

Like 97% of southern soldiers were far to poor to ever have slaves. Even some of the more aristocratic ones, for example Thomas Jackson actually went out of his way to teach slaves to read and write and helped build a Sunday school for them. I couldn't believe when I learned one of the confederates most famous generals was teaching slaves to read and write and with respect. It was quite a surprise for me to learn.

Lincoln only gave the emancipation proclamation addrssing slaves in confederate territory deliberately to undermine the south's economy, and to sow discontent and unrest.

Definitely didn't learn these things in school.

It's really changed how I look at the war.

I am really thinking that American civil war Was the South being angry and feeling mistreated over states rights issues. It's far more complex than I realized. And I am now viewing the confederacy differently than I did before. The North invaded to beat the South back into submission to preserve the union not to stop slavery, that became a method to inflict pain on the southern economy.

I've read/watched all the usuals...the killer angels, God's and generals, gettysburg, glory, (still have to read the last full measure) and I think It's called blue and grey? And others Etc..

If you guys have any interesting points or feedback let me know. I'm always willing to reevaluate and learn.

If you have any book or movie / mini series recommendations let me know
Pretty much NOTHING you learn in school is the whole story.

If you really want to get a clue as to what has happened and is happening, you can start with this 2 DVD video (also in audiobook format)

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...grand+illusion
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:42 AM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,589,592 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
https://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm%3Fid%3D251

The Southern lag in industrial development did not result from any inherent economic disadvantages. There was great wealth in the South, but it was primarily tied up in the slave economy. In 1860, the economic value of slaves in the United States exceeded the invested value of all of the nation's railroads, factories, and banks combined. On the eve of the Civil War, cotton prices were at an all-time high. The Confederate leaders were confident that the importance of cotton on the world market, particularly in England and France, would provide the South with the diplomatic and military assistance they needed for victory.

The Southern economy, while shaky throughout the war, grew markedly worse in its later years. The Emancipation Proclamation both enraged the South with its promise of freedom for their slaves, and threatened the very existence of its primary labor source.
It was published on a government web site, by a white person, so it must be true, right?

Okay, so take into account that the initial beginning, slavery was not included in Lincolns strategy in a strong Union. He needed the Confederate (Maryland included) economic wealth to build a strong Union. (it was and it will always be about money, not how it was made, but money itself) However, if one does their due diligence and see how well the Confederacy was not just holding up in the war, but winning it, then one comes to understand, Lincoln had to make a hit on the economics, to knock 'em off their game. In order to do that, he freed the slaves of the Confederate States. Not the Union States, no, no, no ... did not want to anger them.

I found this today as I went looking for the additional perspective on this situation and found something interesting. (oh and by the way, I too have congressional hearings of the 1860's if you care to be linked up)

Homicide Justified: The Legality of Killing Slaves in the Atlantic World – AAIHS

"By the years between 1840 and 1860, the city’s population was almost forty thousand people. Charleston was unique among southern cities because between 1800 and 1850 slaves and free blacks outnumbered whites, and in 1820 and 1840 three-quarters of the heads of households owned slaves. Slaves were employed in various occupations, but most were household or domestic workers."
________

Also, white people were not the only ones enjoying the wealth and prosperity that came from that way of life. From Biblical times forward, there was debtors prison ... a poor-per would sell themselves into slavery to a rich aristocrat (or whatever they called themselves) the rich person paid the poor person government (tax) debt and they worked it off ... on my to do list in research is to find out when debtors prison became a thing of the past.

Atlantic Slave trade is what brought this way of life to the U.S. and I'm sure, many of them (not all of 'em) thought they were doing the right thing by the people sold into slavery ... (can't wake up dead people and ask 'em) but I do know one thing. There isn't a man, woman, or child today, born of any ethnicity that hasn't slavery in their ancestry, much of which was the brutal kind. And as close as I can tell forty-four percent of the African Americans know it, too.
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:58 AM
Status: "It Can't Rain All The Time" (set 26 days ago)
 
Location: North Pacific
15,754 posts, read 7,589,592 times
Reputation: 2576
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Judging from the posts on here from the people of the northern states, I don't think you are the only one who is ignorant of the facts that started the Civil War. It was basically economic.

Then there's the fictional book, UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.

I have quit listening to the lies. It happened more than 150 years ago. It is time to move forward without blame on either side. We don't need to be split again.

I am hoping some day those who are here because their ancestors were slaves will some day realize how lucky they are their ancestors were brought here instead of staying in a country where their fellow citizens sold them into slavery. In some of those countries selling young children into slavery is still going on.
Quote:
Judging from the posts on here from the people of the northern states
From most posts that I have read on this subject, it seems many northerners will agree with the op.

Several years back in seeing thread such as this, I began to look things up. I began with those Succession documents, every one goes on about. It took me several reads to 'see' it, but at first I was omg ... they're right, it was slavery alone. The English those documents are written in, is the queens English ... and there is only a couple of lines within the documents that tell the rest of the story of their realities.

You being born and raised NC and me a Texan, we know the stories that didn't make it into the history books and no historian seems to want to touch and those are the ones about what really went on in the basements and storm shelters of many a home during that time ... Bible class and hiding people.

I have stumbled across some of the stories on NPR web site as cards and letters of those that knew how to write have surfaced.

We know the truth and that is all that matters ... imho.

Last edited by Ellis Bell; 09-21-2017 at 01:29 AM.. Reason: lot of typos ...
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:48 AM
 
9,613 posts, read 6,940,992 times
Reputation: 6842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
https://www.nps.gov/resources/story.htm%3Fid%3D251

The Southern lag in industrial development did not result from any inherent economic disadvantages. There was great wealth in the South, but it was primarily tied up in the slave economy. In 1860, the economic value of slaves in the United States exceeded the invested value of all of the nation's railroads, factories, and banks combined. On the eve of the Civil War, cotton prices were at an all-time high. The Confederate leaders were confident that the importance of cotton on the world market, particularly in England and France, would provide the South with the diplomatic and military assistance they needed for victory.

The Southern economy, while shaky throughout the war, grew markedly worse in its later years. The Emancipation Proclamation both enraged the South with its promise of freedom for their slaves, and threatened the very existence of its primary labor source.
Not sure if your link is intended to prove otherwise, but it reinforces the point over economics.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:40 AM
 
Location: *
13,242 posts, read 4,921,040 times
Reputation: 3461
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
This is very true.

Those of you who overlook this fact are very odd to me.

On not "everyone agreeing with ______" that has nothing to do with the fact that secession was done by southern state over slavery and the war was started due to the secessionists attacking the northern union.

Those are simple things that I actually did learn in middle school. It was reinforced by AP history in high school and again in college and AGAIN through my self study and reading the actual "articles of secession" from various southern states.

It is very strange to me that people alive today want to defend or ignore the fact that the southern economy was heavily dependent on slavery and that its continuance was of vital importance to the ruling class in the south - who were the ones in charge politically.
Agree with much here with the exception of the bold.

"Confederate sympathizers have long understood the importance of getting the Civil War wrong."

Quote:
...None of this was secret in the 1860s. The “anything but slavery” explanations gained traction only after the war, especially after 1890—at exactly the same time that Jim Crow laws became entrenched across the South. Thus when people wrote about secession influenced what they wrote.

And here the states’ rights argument opens a door for teachers to explain how perceptions of the past change from one generation to the next. Most students imagine history is something “to be learned,” so the whole idea of historiography—that who writes history, when and for what audience, affects how history is written— is new to them. They need to know it. Knowledge of historiography empowers students, helping them become critical readers and thinkers.

Concealing the role of white supremacy—on both sides of the conflict— makes it harder for students to see white supremacy today. After all, if southerners were not championing slavery but states’ rights, then that minimizes southern racism as a cause of the war. And it gives implicit support to the Lost Cause argument that slavery was a benevolent institution. Espousing states’ rights as the reason for secession whitewashes the Confederate cause into a “David versus Goliath” undertaking— the states against the mighty federal government. ...
Getting the Civil War Right
Did America’s most divisive war start over slavery or states’ rights? James W. Loewen, author of Lies My Teacher Told Me, says that too many people— including educators—get it wrong.

https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/f...ivil-war-right

Folks who go by the 'History is written by victors' standard have likely never glanced at a present day history textbook used, particularly in a former Slave State of the Confederacy. Take Texas for example & the recent multiple controversies over textbooks used, particularly the 'slavery was a benevolent institution' schtick, it's ridiculous & bad history to boot.

As Fritz Fischer, chairman of the National Council for History Education, put it, "It's not a partisan issue, it's a good history issue."
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:44 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
5,725 posts, read 11,711,000 times
Reputation: 9829
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Judging from the posts on here from the people of the northern states, I don't think you are the only one who is ignorant of the facts that started the Civil War. It was basically economic.

Then there's the fictional book, UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.

I have quit listening to the lies. It happened more than 150 years ago. It is time to move forward without blame on either side. We don't need to be split again.

I am hoping some day those who are here because their ancestors were slaves will some day realize how lucky they are their ancestors were brought here instead of staying in a country where their fellow citizens sold them into slavery. In some of those countries selling young children into slavery is still going on.
I laughed out loud at the part where you implied others were ignorant.
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Vermont
11,758 posts, read 14,646,068 times
Reputation: 18523
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
Judging from the posts on here from the people of the northern states, I don't think you are the only one who is ignorant of the facts that started the Civil War. It was basically economic.

Then there's the fictional book, UNCLE TOM'S CABIN.

I have quit listening to the lies. It happened more than 150 years ago. It is time to move forward without blame on either side. We don't need to be split again.

I am hoping some day those who are here because their ancestors were slaves will some day realize how lucky they are their ancestors were brought here instead of staying in a country where their fellow citizens sold them into slavery. In some of those countries selling young children into slavery is still going on.
First, everybody knows that Uncle Tom's Cabin is a novel. Nobody pretends otherwise. It's a novel that graphically shows the evils of slavery, but it's a novel nonetheless.

Still, I congratulate you. This is the only honest post in this entire thread from the pro-Confederacy posters. You are the only poster here who will admit the truth: that you support slavery and racism. All the other pro-Confederacy posters also support slavery and racism, but try to disguise it by pretending to believe that the Civil War was not about slavery.

Of course, on your point that it "was basically economic" you're dead wrong. Your heroes told the world what it was about, and that was slavery, pure and simple.

Still, as the only person to come out publicly in favor of slavery you should probably get some kind of award.
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