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Old 10-03-2017, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Marcinkiewicz View Post
3 million dead on the North Korean side, thanks to our great country. Fair fight.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/worl...fore-1.3227633
Not enough. We should have killed five times as many North Koreans.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,062 posts, read 8,299,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
To discuss that means we have to discuss the entire cold war geopolitical concept at that time. Namely the Truman Doctrine.

But the irony at that time is that:
-Stalin gave Kim the OK to invade the south, thinking that the US would not intervene (we had mostly pulled out our military from S. Korea). Miscalculation!
-Likewise Truman gave Mac the permission to pursue the NK forces to the Yalu thinking that China would not intervene (which as I stated in retrospect would have to be done in any regards). Miscalculation!

The other irony is that USSR, by making a stupid decision to boycott the UN at that time like a spoiled child, caused not only the US to be involved, but the entire UN to be at war with N. Korea.
Quote:
To seize the initiative, MacArthur launched a daring amphibious landing at Inchon, behind enemy lines, in September 1950. A month later, U.S. troops captured Pyongyang, the northern capital, and then, despite orders from Washington, pushed north to the Chinese border. They’d be home by Christmas, the general promised. Instead, the Chinese invaded that December, overwhelming and outmaneuvering American troops.
MacArthur and Truman face off in H.W. Brands' new history - LA Times
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:09 PM
 
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Truman gave Mac permission to pursue N. Korean troops NORTH, and north is indeed towards the Yalu last time I checked. That is without dispute. I think that article is misworded, as I understand he was "discouraged" by the joint chiefs of staff and probably told to just use S. Korean troops for the last push past the capital of N. Korea, but I know of no direct order to cease chasing troops to the border, as after the success of Inchon he was given carte blanche to some extent.
Nevertheless none of that matters since Chinese troops were already massed at the border.
Macarthur actually wanted to pursue the North Koreans past the Yalu and into China, as well as bombing the China mainland.
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:17 AM
 
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I noticed another error in your quoted article - they quote "Instead, the Chinese invaded that December, overwhelming and outmaneuvering American troops. "...actually the Chinese started coming over the border in mid-October and began engaging US troops in early November.
So I would discount your sources.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,062 posts, read 8,299,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Truman gave Mac permission to pursue N. Korean troops NORTH, and north is indeed towards the Yalu last time I checked. That is without dispute. I think that article is misworded, as I understand he was "discouraged" by the joint chiefs of staff and probably told to just use S. Korean troops for the last push past the capital of N. Korea, but I know of no direct order to cease chasing troops to the border, as after the success of Inchon he was given carte blanche to some extent.
Nevertheless none of that matters since Chinese troops were already massed at the border.
Macarthur actually wanted to pursue the North Koreans past the Yalu and into China, as well as bombing the China mainland.
http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/vi...istory_honproj

Quote:
On September 27, Washington provided MacArthur permission to cross into North Korean territory to conduct military operations. However, Washington gave him several restrictions: “he was forbidden to send aircraft over Sino-Russian territory, and only ROK troops could approach the Yalu.” Truman specifically said, “As a matter of policy, no non-Korean ground forces were to be used in the provinces bordering on the Soviet Union or in the area along the Manchurian border.”

[...]

Truman very bluntly told MacArthur during the Wake Island Conference not to provoke the Chinese and Soviet Union into a general war.

Merely mopping‐up operations remained in Korea, and on October 24, 1950, MacArthur violated orders once again and sent American units along the Chinese border because he believed that ROK troops were ineffective. Truman pointed out this defiance of authority by saying, “The Joint Chiefs of Staff had instructed MacArthur that in his advance north he should not place non‐Korean elements near the Manchurian and Soviet borders. But in his order to his commanders the general provided for the drive to the north to be spearheaded by American units.
I think there is a large difference between permitting an action beforehand and acquiescing to a fait accompli, after the fact, due to domestic political difficulties. MacArthur clearly disobeyed orders from the JCS and, by extension, Truman.

Last edited by CrazyDonkey; 10-11-2017 at 03:00 PM..
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,062 posts, read 8,299,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I noticed another error in your quoted article - they quote "Instead, the Chinese invaded that December, overwhelming and outmaneuvering American troops. "...actually the Chinese started coming over the border in mid-October and began engaging US troops in early November.
So I would discount your sources.
You're confusing two different levels and dates of engagement:

Quote:
By the end of October, 1950 Chinese Communist forces were already engaged in Korea and had fought against United Nations forces.
and

Quote:
MacArthur’s troops occupied positions near the Yalu approaching the Manchurian border when, on November 27, 1950, massive numbers of Chinese troops commanded by Lin Piao invaded Korea. These attacks forced the Eighth Army to make a rapid withdrawal and the X Corps under General Almond to retreat towards Wonsan. It soon became clear that the present forces in Korea did not have the strength to meet the new attack; MacArthur switched to the defense and ordered his troops to retreat.
http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/vi...istory_honproj
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/vi...istory_honproj

I think there is a large difference between permitting an action beforehand and acquiescing to a fait accompli, after the fact, due to domestic political difficulties. MacArthur clearly disobeyed orders from the JCS and, by extension, Truman.
We are really mincing words - the key here is that he was given permission to cross the 38th parallel by Truman. He was heading north. The Yalu river was to the north, the Russian border is even farther north. That was my original point. By the way ROK forces were under the command of MacArthur so even taken literally, the wording of my post was correct per Truman's original order. So let's pause there...

Now, your second topic, unrelated to the above, is how far north should US troops only advance. So Truman said on September 27th no US troops, only ROK troops, to the Yalu which I do not dispute. Mac's side of the story is he brought up moving US troops to the border during a conference with the Joint Chiefs in Wake Island in October. Now no one remembers it being discussed and it caused some embarrassment because Truman later said "only ROK troops are at the Yalu" to the press. Knowing MacArthur, who indeed did his own thing, he probably did mention it during the conference in passing or as a casual remark, which no one paid attention to, from what I read that conference was very disorganized, and he took it as implicit approval when no one said "Don't Do That". MacArthur was one of a kind!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
You're confusing two different levels and dates of engagement:

and

http://digitalcommons.iwu.edu/cgi/vi...istory_honproj
I confused nothing. On that point it's very clear - your link said the Chinese invaded in December. It's not a big deal, but that is simply incorrect.



Look I appreciate your detail and research...but you are trying to hard here...focusing on semantics and reading too much into a thread.

Last edited by Dd714; 10-11-2017 at 03:44 PM..
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Old 10-11-2017, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,062 posts, read 8,299,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
We are really mincing words - the key here is that he was given permission to cross the 38th parallel by Truman. He was heading north. The Yalu river was to the north, the Russian border is even farther north. That was my original point although I can see how my original phrasing was incorrect. So let's pause there...

Now, your second topic, unrelated to the above, is how far north. So Truman said on September 27th no US troops, only ROK troops, to the Yalu which I do not dispute. Mac's side of the story is he brought up moving US troops to the border during a conference with the Joint Chiefs in Wake Island in October. Now no one remembers it being discussed and it caused some embarrassment because Truman later said "only ROK troops are at the Yalu" to the press. Knowing MacArthur, who indeed did his own thing, he probably did mention it during the conference in passing or as a casual remark, which no one paid attention to, from what I read that conference was very disorganized, and he took it as implicit approval when no one said "Don't Do That". MacArthur was one of a kind!

I confused nothing. On that point it's very clear - your link said the Chinese invaded in December. It's not a big deal, but that is simply incorrect.

Look I appreciate your detail and research...but you are trying to hard here...focusing on semantics and reading too much into a thread.
You are very quick to dismiss sources that contradict, but have not provided a single source to back up, your assertions. Show me one reputable source that says MacArthur didn't disobey JCS orders in ordering a drive to the Yalu spearheaded by U.S. troops.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:40 PM
 
14,984 posts, read 23,781,627 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
You are very quick to dismiss sources that contradict, but have not provided a single source to back up, your assertions. Show me one reputable source that says MacArthur didn't disobey JCS orders in ordering a drive to the Yalu spearheaded by U.S. troops.
Like I said, you are trying to hard, and now you are disagreeing with topics we have no disagreement with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Now, your second topic, unrelated to the above, is how far north should US troops only advance. So Truman said on September 27th no US troops, only ROK troops, to the Yalu which I do not dispute.
The rest of the paragraph explains, I thought clearly with some semblance of sarcasm directed at MacArthur(i.e. "MacArthur was one of a kind!") how he justified his disobeyment or orders. That reference from the Wake Island conference was from Michael Pearlman's "Truman and MacArthur: Policy, Politics, and the Hunger for Honor and Renown" which was further referenced in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presid...EFPearlman2008
"He also lifted the prohibition on troops other than South Koreans operating along the borders with China and the Soviet Union. Collins considered this a violation of the orders that the Joint Chiefs had issued on 27 September, but MacArthur pointed out that it was only, in the words of the original directive, "a matter of policy." He added that the matter had been raised at Wake Island, but no one else recalled this particularly not Truman, who, unaware of these discussions, told reporters on 26 October that Koreans and not Americans would occupy the border areas."

Are we clear now? Are we speaking the same language? This is getting tiresome.
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Independent Republic of Ballard
8,062 posts, read 8,299,106 times
Reputation: 6218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Like I said, you are trying to hard, and now you are disagreeing with topics we have no disagreement with:



The rest of the paragraph explains, I thought clearly with some semblance of sarcasm directed at MacArthur(i.e. "MacArthur was one of a kind!") how he justified his disobeyment or orders. That reference from the Wake Island conference was from Michael Pearlman's "Truman and MacArthur: Policy, Politics, and the Hunger for Honor and Renown" which was further referenced in Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presid...EFPearlman2008
"He also lifted the prohibition on troops other than South Koreans operating along the borders with China and the Soviet Union. Collins considered this a violation of the orders that the Joint Chiefs had issued on 27 September, but MacArthur pointed out that it was only, in the words of the original directive, "a matter of policy." He added that the matter had been raised at Wake Island, but no one else recalled this particularly not Truman, who, unaware of these discussions, told reporters on 26 October that Koreans and not Americans would occupy the border areas."

Are we clear now? Are we speaking the same language? This is getting tiresome.
In other words, you're relying entirely on MacArthur's own after-the-fact self-serving justification.
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