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Old 12-28-2019, 04:51 PM
 
13,313 posts, read 18,310,602 times
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Did anyone watch Putin's latest public speech? When he disclosed secret documents about France, Poland, and GB collaboration to unleash WW2? When Polish attache in germany said that Warsaw needs Hitler statue made out of gold for his Jewish policies?
That'll answer OP. There was a major collusion between 1032 and 1939 to direct Germany Nach ost.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-2wvwRVjpQ&t=221s


https://ria.ru/20191220/1562659155.html


"Франко-германская декларация. Декларация подписана 6 декабря 1938 года в Париже министрами иностранных дел Франции и Германии Боне и Риббентропом.

"Franco-German Declaration. The Declaration was signed on December 6, 1938 in Paris by the Ministers for Foreign Affairs of France and Germany, Bonnet and Ribbentrop.

Last edited by ukrkoz; 12-28-2019 at 05:00 PM..
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Old 12-28-2019, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Russia
785 posts, read 144,084 times
Reputation: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Did anyone watch Putin's latest public speech? When he disclosed secret documents about France, Poland, and GB collaboration to unleash WW2? When Polish attache in germany said that Warsaw needs Hitler statue made out of gold for his Jewish policies?
That'll answer OP. There was a major collusion between 1032 and 1939 to direct Germany Nach ost.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-2wvwRVjpQ&t=221s


https://ria.ru/20191220/1562659155.html


"Франко-германская декларация. Декларация подписана 6 декабря 1938 года в Париже министрами иностранных дел Франции и Германии Боне и Риббентропом.

"Franco-German Declaration. The Declaration was signed on December 6, 1938 in Paris by the Ministers for Foreign Affairs of France and Germany, Bonnet and Ribbentrop.
And that, in fact, he said everything correctly..
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Old 12-29-2019, 12:15 AM
 
36,602 posts, read 18,829,750 times
Reputation: 21236
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Did anyone watch Putin's latest public speech? When he disclosed secret documents about France, Poland, and GB collaboration to unleash WW2?
As if anyone believes Russia when they suddenly find a stash of highly convenient "secret documents".

The Soviet Union happily allied themselves with the Nazis right until the Nazis - surprise, surprise - showed themselves to be less than trustworthy. Stalin was consistently outmaneuvered and outclassed - by Germany and by the Allies.
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Old 12-29-2019, 11:38 AM
 
Location: The North Star State
2,896 posts, read 890,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Did anyone watch Putin's latest public speech? When he disclosed secret documents about France, Poland, and GB collaboration to unleash WW2?
If I didn't know this poster better, I'd guess the post above to be some sort of ill-conceived attempt at ironic performance art.

The part about Poland contriving to get both Germany and the USSR to invade and dismember it is particularly... um, 'imaginative'. Let me guess-- Poland also made Uncle Joe murder 22,000 Poles at Katyn, right?
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Old 12-29-2019, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Russia
785 posts, read 144,084 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
If I didn't know this poster better, I'd guess the post above to be some sort of ill-conceived attempt at ironic performance art.

The part about Poland contriving to get both Germany and the USSR to invade and dismember it is particularly... um, 'imaginative'. Let me guess-- Poland also made Uncle Joe murder 22,000 Poles at Katyn, right?
And if I tell you that after the Soviet-Polish war of 1919-1923 in the Polish camps, according to various estimates, died from 20 to 80 thousand red army's prisoners, of course, you will not believe it?
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Old 12-30-2019, 04:37 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 163,677 times
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Here we go with another russian manipulation of history. The matter of mortality of russian prisoners of war in 1920 appeared on political spectrum in 1990 after Gorbachov admited to soviet union responsibility for katyn crime.

Some russian media came to this matter from 1920 trying in that way to justify katyn crime like russian member of this forum here. Opinions of media there put insane, completely not true numbers of dead prisoners of war (60 to even over 100 thousands of people) Those numbers were recognised as false by polish-russian publication in 2004. This publication was developed by direction of national archives and by federal agency to russia's archives matter. It was published as „Krasnoarmiejcy w polskom plenu w 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentow i materiałow” in polish and russian language. It is consisted of 338 documents from russian and polish archives.

According to historians the number of polish prisoners of war in prisoner of war camps in the late 1920 was between 80 and 85 thousands, while the number of all deaths during the whole time of war was 16-17 thousand of people.
The archives also contradict thesis that some russians claim as to that prisoners of wars were deliberately exterminated through mass executions. The main reason of death rate were epidemics of contagious diseases. What needs to be also added that in destroyed by war country not only prisoners of war but also civilians and polish soldiers were victims of those epidemics of contagious diseases.

In 2011 were found documents which proved efforts of polish state to fight with epidemics of typhus, cholera. Dr Felix Przesmycki was directed to the camp where in 6 weeks was he able to overcome epidemics of diseases that were present in the camp.

What also should be noted is the fact that mortality in russian prisoners of war camp was higher than in polish camps. About 19 thousands of polish prisoners of war died in russian camps but the number of prisoners of war was much lower there because only 45 thousand, making mortality in those camps much bigger than in polish camps. Mortality in russian prisoner of war camps was at 42 percent rate. Shocking rate.



And how can anyone compare deliberate extermination of thousands of defenceless people in Katyn by shooting them in the back of the head not to mention all the others delibaretaly executed poles by soviets to people dieing because of epidemics of diseases in camps?

Communists and some russians should stop justifying crimes comitted by soviet union just like germans do not justify crimes comitted by them during world war.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 12-30-2019 at 05:19 AM..
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Old 12-30-2019, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 163,677 times
Reputation: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Here we go with another russian manipulation of history. The matter of mortality of russian prisoners of war in 1920 appeared on political spectrum in 1990 after Gorbachov admited to soviet union responsibility for katyn crime.

Some russian media came to this matter from 1920 trying in that way to justify katyn crime like russian member of this forum here. Opinions of media there put insane, completely not true numbers of dead prisoners of war (60 to even over 100 thousands of people) Those numbers were recognised as false by polish-russian publication in 2004. This publication was developed by direction of national archives and by federal agency to russia's archives matter. It was published as „Krasnoarmiejcy w polskom plenu w 1919–1922 g. Sbornik dokumentow i materiałow” in polish and russian language. It is consisted of 338 documents from russian and polish archives.

According to historians the number of russian prisoners of war in prisoner of war camps in the late 1920 was between 80 and 85 thousands, while the number of all deaths during the whole time of war was 16-17 thousand of people.
The archives also contradict thesis that some russians claim as to that prisoners of wars were deliberately exterminated through mass executions. The main reason of death rate were epidemics of contagious diseases. What needs to be also added that in destroyed by war country not only prisoners of war but also civilians and polish soldiers were victims of those epidemics of contagious diseases.

In 2011 were found documents which proved efforts of polish state to fight with epidemics of typhus, cholera. Dr Felix Przesmycki was directed to the camp where in 6 weeks was he able to overcome epidemics of diseases that were present in the camp.

What also should be noted is the fact that mortality in russian prisoners of war camp was higher than in polish camps. About 19 thousands of polish prisoners of war died in russian camps but the number of prisoners of war was much lower there because only 45 thousand, making mortality in those camps much bigger than in polish camps. Mortality in russian prisoner of war camps was at 42 percent rate. Shocking rate.



And how can anyone compare deliberate extermination of thousands of defenceless people in Katyn by shooting them in the back of the head not to mention all the others delibaretaly executed poles by soviets to people dieing because of epidemics of diseases in camps?

Communists and some russians should stop justifying crimes comitted by soviet union just like germans do not justify crimes comitted by them during world war.
Sorry for the typo in the original post. I corrected the post here in the quote. It was supposed to be "russian prisoners of war" instead of "polish prisoners of war" in that particular bold, underlined sentence like it is now corrected in the quote of original post here.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 12-30-2019 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:33 AM
 
Location: Russia
785 posts, read 144,084 times
Reputation: 353
Who shot Polish officers at Katyn?

Spoiler
Investigation of all the circumstances of the massacre of Polish soldiers, included in history as the “Katynsky shooting”, still provokes heated debates in Russia and in Poland. According to the “official” modern version, the murder of Polish officers is the work of the NKVD of the USSR. However, back in 1943 — 1944. A special commission headed by N. Burdenko, the chief surgeon of the Red Army, concluded that the Nazis had killed the Polish military. Despite the fact that the current Russian leadership agreed with the version of the “Soviet trace”, there really were a lot of contradictions and ambiguities in the case of the massacre of Polish officers. To understand who could shoot the Polish soldiers, it is necessary to take a closer look at the very process of investigating the Katyn massacre.

In March, 1942, residents of the village Kozi Gory, in the Smolensk region, informed the occupying authorities about the place of mass graves of Polish soldiers. The Poles who worked in the construction platoon unearthed several graves and reported this to the German commanders, but it initially related to news with complete indifference. The situation changed in 1943, when a turnaround had already taken place at the front and Germany was interested in increasing anti-Soviet propaganda. 18 February 1943, the German field police have begun excavations in the Katyn Forest. A special commission was formed, headed by Breslau University professor Gerhardt Butz - the “light” of the forensic medical examination, who served in the rank of captain as head of the forensic laboratory of the Army Group Center. Already 13 on April 1943 of the year German radio reported on the found burial place of 10 thousands of Polish officers. In fact, the German investigators “figured out” the number of Poles who had rest in the Katyn forest, very simply - they took the total number of officers of the Polish army before the outbreak of the war, from which Anders ’military personnel were deducted. All the other Polish officers, according to the German side, were shot by the NKVD in the Katyn Forest. Naturally, it didn’t do without the inherent anti-Semitism of the Nazis - the German media immediately reported that Jews were involved in the executions.

16 April 1943, the Soviet Union officially denied the "slanderous attacks" of Hitler's Germany. April 17 for clarification to the Soviet government asked the Polish government in exile. It is interesting that at that time the Polish leadership did not try to blame the Soviet Union for everything, but focused on the crimes of Nazi Germany against the Polish people. However, the USSR broke off relations with the Polish government in exile.

Joseph Goebbels, the “propagandist number one” of the Third Reich, managed to achieve even greater effect than he originally intended. The Katyn massacre was issued by German propaganda for the classic manifestation of the "atrocities of the Bolsheviks." Obviously, the Nazis, accusing the Soviet side of the murder of Polish prisoners of war, sought to discredit the Soviet Union in the eyes of Western countries. The brutal execution of Polish prisoners of war, allegedly carried out by Soviet Chekists, should, according to the Nazis, alienate the United States, Britain and the Polish government in exile from cooperation with Moscow. Last Goebbels succeeded - in Poland, the version about the execution of Polish officers by the Soviet NKVD was accepted by very many. The fact is that even in 1940, the correspondence with the Polish prisoners of war in the territory of the Soviet Union stopped. Nothing more was known about the fate of the Polish officers. At the same time, representatives of the United States and Great Britain tried to “hush up” the Polish topic, because they did not want to irritate Stalin at such a crucial time when Soviet troops were able to turn the tide at the front.
To ensure a larger propaganda effect, the Nazis even brought in the investigation the Polish Red Cross (PAC), whose representatives were associated with anti-fascist resistance. From the Polish side, the commission was headed by Marian Vodzinsky - a physician from the University of Krakow, a reputable person and participating in the activities of the Polish anti-fascist resistance. The Nazis even went so far as to allow the representatives of the PAC to the place of the alleged shooting, where the excavations of graves took place. The findings of the commission were disappointing - the PAC confirmed the German version that Polish officers were shot in April-May 1940, that is, before the start of the war between Germany and the Soviet Union.
28-30 April 1943, an international commission arrived in Katyn. Of course, it was a very loud name - in fact, the commission was formed from representatives of the states occupied by Hitler's Germany or who maintained allied relations with it. As was to be expected, the commission took the side of Berlin and also confirmed that Polish officers were killed in the spring of 1940 by Soviet Chekists. Further investigative actions of the German side, however, were discontinued - in September 1943, the Red Army liberated Smolensk. Almost immediately after the liberation of the Smolensk region, the Soviet leadership decided that it was necessary to conduct its own investigation - in order to expose Hitler’s slander about the involvement of the Soviet Union in the massacre of Polish officers.

October 5 The 1943 Special Commission was established by the NKVD and the NKGB under the leadership of the People’s Commissar of State Security Vsevolod Merkulov and Deputy People’s Commissar of the Interior Sergey Kruglov. Unlike the German commission, the Soviet commission approached the matter more thoroughly, including the organization of the interrogation of witnesses. An 95 person was interviewed. As a result, interesting details emerged. Even before the start of the war, three camps for Polish prisoners of war were deployed to the west of Smolensk. They housed officers and generals of the Polish Army, gendarmes, policemen, and officers captured in Poland. Most of the prisoners of war were used in road works of varying degrees of severity. When the war began, the Soviet authorities did not have time to evacuate Polish prisoners of war from the camps. So the Polish officers were already in German captivity, and the Germans continued to use the labor of prisoners of war in road and construction work.

In August - September 1941, the German command decided to shoot all Polish prisoners of war held in Smolensk camps. The actual execution of Polish officers was carried out by the headquarters of the 537 Construction Battalion under the leadership of Lieutenant Arnes, Chief Lieutenant Rext and Lieutenant Hotta. The headquarters of this battalion was located in the village of Kozi Hory. In the spring of 1943, when provocation against the Soviet Union was already being prepared, the Nazis forced the Soviet prisoners of war to dig the graves and, after the excavations, removed all documents from the graves, dating back to the time after the spring of 1940. So the date of the alleged execution of Polish prisoners of war was “fitted”. The Germans shot the Soviet prisoners of war who carried out the excavations and forced the local residents to give evidence to the Germans.

12 January 1944 was formed a special commission to establish and investigate the circumstances of the execution by the fascist German invaders in the Katyn forest (near Smolensk) Polish officer prisoners of war. This commission was headed by the chief surgeon of the Red Army, Lieutenant-General Medical Service Nikolai Nilovich Burdenko, and included a number of prominent Soviet scientists. Interestingly, the commission included writer Alexei Tolstoy and Metropolitan of Kiev and Galitsky Nikolay (Yarushevich). Although public opinion in the West by this time was already quite biased, nevertheless, an episode with the shooting of Polish officers in Katyn entered the indictment of the Nuremberg Tribunal. That is, the responsibility of Hitler's Germany for the commission of this crime was actually recognized.

For many decades, the Katyn shooting was forgotten, however, when at the end of the 1980s. began the systematic "loosening" of the Soviet state, the history of the Katyn massacre was again "refreshed" by human rights activists and journalists, and then by the Polish leadership. In 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev actually recognized the responsibility of the Soviet Union for the Katyn shooting. Since that time, and now for almost thirty years, the version that Polish officers have been shot by the NKVD officers of the USSR has become the dominant version. Even the “patriotic turn” of the Russian state in the 2000s did not affect the changing situation. Russia continues to "repent" for the crime committed by the Nazis, and Poland puts forward more and more stringent requirements for the recognition of the Katyn massacre as genocide.

In the meantime, many domestic historians and experts present their views on the Katyn tragedy. So, Elena Prudnikova and Ivan Chigirin in the book “Katyn. A lie that has become history ”, draws attention to very interesting nuances. For example, all the corpses found in the tombs at Katyn were dressed in Polish uniforms with insignia. But until 1941, Soviet prisoners of war camps were not allowed to wear insignia. All prisoners were equal in status and could not wear cockades and epaulets. It turns out that to be with signs of distinction at the time of death, if they were really shot in 1940, Polish officers simply could not. Since the Soviet Union did not sign the Geneva Convention for a long time, the maintenance of prisoners of war with preservation of insignia in the Soviet camps was not allowed. Apparently, the Nazis did not consider this interesting moment and themselves contributed to exposing their lies - Polish prisoners of war were shot after the 1941 year, but then Smolensk was occupied by the Nazis. This circumstance, referring to the work of Prudnikova and Chigirin, is indicated in one of his publications by Anatoly Wasserman.
Private detective Ernest Aslanyan draws attention to a very interesting detail - Polish prisoners of war were killed from a gunshot weaponsproduced in Germany. The NKVD of the USSR did not use such weapons. Even if there were copies of German weapons at the disposal of the Soviet Chekists, it was by no means in the quantity used in Katyn. However, this circumstance is for some reason not considered by supporters of the version that Polish officers were killed by the Soviet side. More precisely, this question, of course, was raised in the media, but the answers to it were given some unintelligible, - said Aslanian.

The version on the use of German weapons in 1940 in order to “write off” the corpses of Polish officers on the Nazis really seems very strange. The Soviet leadership hardly expected that Germany would not only start a war, but also be able to reach Smolensk. Accordingly, there was no reason to “substitute” the Germans by shooting Polish prisoners of war with German weapons. Another version seems to be more plausible - the shooting of Polish officers in the camps of the Smolensk region was indeed carried out, but not at all on the scale mentioned by Hitler's propaganda. In the Soviet Union there were many camps where Polish prisoners of war were kept, but nowhere else were mass executions carried out. What could have forced the Soviet command to arrange the execution of 12 of thousands of Polish prisoners of war precisely in the Smolensk region? The answer to this question is impossible to give. Meanwhile, the Nazis themselves could completely destroy the Polish prisoners of war - they did not feel any reverence for the Poles, did not differ in humanism in relation to prisoners of war, especially to the Slavs. Destroying several thousand Poles for the Hitlerite executioners was not a problem at all.

However, the version about the murder of Polish officers by the Soviet Chekists is very convenient in the current situation. For the West, the reception of Goebbels propaganda is a wonderful way to once again “prick” Russia, to blame Moscow for war crimes. For Poland and the Baltic countries, this version is another tool of anti-Russian propaganda and a way to get more generous funding from the United States and the European Union. As for the Russian leadership, his agreement with the version of the shooting of the Poles by order of the Soviet government is explained, apparently, by purely opportunistic considerations. As “our answer to Warsaw,” we could raise the topic of the fate of Soviet prisoners of war in Poland, of which there were more than 1920 thousands of people in 40. However, no one deals with this issue.

A genuine, objective investigation of all the circumstances of the Katyn massacre is still waiting in the wings. It remains to hope that it will completely expose the monstrous slander against the Soviet country and confirm that the Nazis were the real executioners of Polish prisoners of war.

https://en.topwar.ru/130811-kto-rass...-oficerov.html
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Old 12-30-2019, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 163,677 times
Reputation: 358
So another russian trying to falsify history even after his own government has admitted to this crime. The world knows the truth already from pretty much the start . So your lieing here will not change much.

Watch this and see what your beloved soviet union did. Killing people only because of their nationality. This is the truth about soviet union, one of the most criminal states in the history of the mankind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2MhG2e3RM

You have no shame denying that even after your own government has already admitted to that crime.
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Old 12-30-2019, 03:44 PM
 
Location: The North Star State
2,896 posts, read 890,062 times
Reputation: 12273
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
So another russian trying to falsify history even after his own government has admitted to this crime. The world knows the truth already from pretty much the start . So your lieing here will not change much.

Watch this and see what your beloved soviet union did. Killing people only because of their nationality. This is the truth about soviet union, one of the most criminal states in the history of the mankind.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is2MhG2e3RM

You have no shame denying that even after your own government has already admitted to that crime.
Yes.

In 1990, the USSR admitted that the Katyn massacre was perpetrated by the NKVD under orders from Stalin.

That same year, Soviet and Russian sources began releasing documentation of the massacre (and other mass-slaughters of Poles), the cover-up, and future (during Khrushchev's rule) secret discussions of the continuing cover-up. The release of relevant documents continued over the years.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/15/w...s-in-1940.html

Vladimir Putin himself has admitted that the Stalin and the USSR were behind the massacre.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...n-1938727.html

Dmitry Medvedev admitted it, with documentation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-documents-web

The Russian Duma admitted it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...katyn-massacre

It takes a special kind of delusional gullibility to deny all of that.
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