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Old 12-30-2019, 04:13 PM
 
22,353 posts, read 8,991,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandono View Post
In WWI they went 4 1/2 whole years sending hundreds of thousands to die to fight off Germany, yet when Germany came rolling in during WWII they hardly put up any resistance. Why did they not definitely oppose Germany and send out a message to every part of France that every man, woman and child should fight to the death to defend France? Make it so the Germans have no one within that will cooperate or talk to them in anyway shape or form, that every single man, woman and child in France is an enemy that will kill any invading German?
In all likelihood, a Jerry Lewis double feature was starting that month.
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Old 12-30-2019, 05:38 PM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
17,830 posts, read 8,437,388 times
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I've heard some people (rather tongue in cheek) say that the French didn't want their beautiful cities being wiped out, especially if they knew they didn't have much of a chance at beating the German head on.

I've also heard some people claim general cowardice on the part of the French.

I'm not passing any judgement on either of the above, but I will say that it was an interesting contrast to see French police officers running away from the scene when the Jewish grocery store was attacked in Paris (I think in Paris) vs. the Texas and Nevada police officers running toward the gun battle during the Garland and Las Vegas shootings.

Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 12-30-2019 at 05:46 PM..
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Old 12-30-2019, 06:36 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,245 posts, read 1,919,877 times
Reputation: 4143
Default They may have different expectations of the police

Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I've heard some people (rather tongue in cheek) say that the French didn't want their beautiful cities being wiped out, especially if they knew they didn't have much of a chance at beating the German head on.

I've also heard some people claim general cowardice on the part of the French.

I'm not passing any judgement on either of the above, but I will say that it was an interesting contrast to see French police officers running away from the scene when the Jewish grocery store was attacked in Paris (I think in Paris) vs. the Texas and Nevada police officers running toward the gun battle during the Garland and Las Vegas shootings.
Were the French police armed? I notice that UK police aren't typically armed, except for when they expect gunfire. & even then, I'm not sure all the rank & file UK police have firearms training, let alone an assigned sidearm or long gun.
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Old 12-30-2019, 06:38 PM
 
Location: The North Star State
2,528 posts, read 766,876 times
Reputation: 10820
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I've heard some people (rather tongue in cheek) say that the French didn't want their beautiful cities being wiped out, especially if they knew they didn't have much of a chance at beating the German head on.
While France certainly suffered physical damage during World War II - a lot of it from Allied bombing (the number of civilians killed was close to the number of British civilians who died in the Blitz), France came out of the war a lot less devastated than Germany, which fought - pointlessly - to the bitter and inevitable end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I've also heard some people claim general cowardice on the part of the French.

I'm not passing any judgement on either of the above, but I will say that it was an interesting contrast to see French police officers running away from the scene when the Jewish grocery store was attacked in Paris (I think in Paris) vs. the Texas and Nevada police officers running toward the gun battle during the Garland and Las Vegas shootings.
What the hell?

Seriously...
What.
The.
Hell?

The 2015 attack on the Jewish grocery ending when French police stormed the building. Two of them were shot.

The first opposition met by the perpetrators of the horrific Bataclan attack was an off-duty French police officer passing by, who immediately entered the building during the attack and managed to kill of of the perpetrators.

Have you ever heard of Arnaud Beltrame? Last year, he offered himself up in exchange for a hostage being held by a terrorist. He was then murdered by that terrorist. Do you find that 'interesting'?

'not passing any judgment'? Uh huh...

I see you fail to mention the LEO assigned to Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, when a student shot 34 people in 2017, killing 17 of them. That LEO refused to enter the building while the gunmen methodically shot people. Is that 'interesting' to you?

See how easy it is to cherry-pick one or two instances?
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Old 12-30-2019, 06:49 PM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
17,830 posts, read 8,437,388 times
Reputation: 17406
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
While France certainly suffered physical damage during World War II - a lot of it from Allied bombing (the number of civilians killed was close to the number of British civilians who died in the Blitz), France came out of the war a lot less devastated than Germany, which fought - pointlessly - to the bitter and inevitable end.



What the hell?

Seriously...
What.
The.
Hell?

The 2015 attack on the Jewish grocery ending when French police stormed the building. Two of them were shot.

The first opposition met by the perpetrators of the horrific Bataclan attack was an off-duty French police officer passing by, who immediately entered the building during the attack and managed to kill of of the perpetrators.

Have you ever heard of Arnaud Beltrame? Last year, he offered himself up in exchange for a hostage being held by a terrorist. He was then murdered by that terrorist. Do you find that 'interesting'?

'not passing any judgment'? Uh huh...

I see you fail to mention the LEO assigned to Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, when a student shot 34 people in 2017, killing 17 of them. That LEO refused to enter the building while the gunmen methodically shot people. Is that 'interesting' to you?

See how easy it is to cherry-pick one or two instances?

The French police ultimately did end the siege (were they some kind of SWAT team?). But there was footage of numerous officers who were on the scene/in the area initially running away.

And, yes, the LEO assigned to Marjorie Stoneman Douglas was a coward who was roundly condemned as such. Such is not the norm for US police officers who are on the scene when crap goes down, a point that was made clear numerous times during the aftermath of the MSD shooting (I don't recall a similar dialogue from the French attack). Perhaps its not the form for the French either.
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Old 12-30-2019, 06:51 PM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
17,830 posts, read 8,437,388 times
Reputation: 17406
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
Were the French police armed? I notice that UK police aren't typically armed, except for when they expect gunfire. & even then, I'm not sure all the rank & file UK police have firearms training, let alone an assigned sidearm or long gun.
They were armed. Police in France seem to be armed as a general matter from what I gather, while the same is not the case for UK police officers.

It could be cultural or different training priorities. In any event, it was interesting for me to see.
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Old 12-30-2019, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Russia
667 posts, read 124,027 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
So another russian trying to falsify history even after his own government has admitted to this crime. The world knows the truth already from pretty much the start . So your lieing here will not change much.

Watch this and see what your beloved soviet union did. Killing people only because of their nationality. This is the truth about soviet union, one of the most criminal states in the history of the mankind.
By God, you are like a child .. And you call this Western agitation material evidence? You are funny ... You have not brought any facts to prove your words, and all this is empty talk and your speculation. All these videos of yours are ordinary propaganda and they are not worth a damn cent. In fact, it’s funny to watch how you rush with this Katyn on different topics on this forum.
Who knows, does not scream. Whoever screams does not know ...

To me, anyway, who is guilty of the execution in Katyn, the USSR, whether Germany ... is a fait accompli of bygone days ...

All Western civilization throughout its history invaded somewhere, killed, hung and burned someone ... destroyed tens of millions of people around the world ... Destroyed the civilizations of the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans ... American Indians, indigenous peoples in Polynesia , in Asia .. And what am I now because of this to tear hair on my ass out something?
So you again sat in a puddle, dear.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Yes.
And about the fact that someone there acknowledged .. Yes for American money they will sell their mother, not that they recognize Katyn.
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Old 12-31-2019, 12:44 AM
 
25,543 posts, read 19,326,735 times
Reputation: 9992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulsker 1856 View Post
Why on Earth do you think that every - or most, or even all that many - person in France would decide to pointlessly throw away their lives in such a manner? Just because Paris said so? Basically, France and the French people behaved rationally. They chose survival. They chose to regroup. So do most societies. So did every other power in the west that Germany invaded and defeated (the calculus was somewhat different in the east, as Germany clearly had different designs for those people and their lands). So did the Confederacy. Even most of eastern Europe decided that enduring communism for some indefinitely-long period was preferable to dying at the hands of the Red Army. It's the same choice made by every soldier who ultimately decides that becoming a POW is preferable to fighting until dead (which is to say, the vast majority of soldiers who have to chose one or the other).

And in the end? French society emerged from the war intact, if dinged. Losses were nothing like what they'd have been had the French people decided to fight to the last baguette.

War is not about making the plot interesting and dramatic and heroic for future readers of history. It's about goals, and those goals vary with individuals and with the shifting fortunes of the participants. And in the end, "Let's survive!" is almost always chosen instead of "Let's die!".
Very good post!
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Old 12-31-2019, 04:52 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 157,100 times
Reputation: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
By God, you are like a child .. And you call this Western agitation material evidence? You are funny ... You have not brought any facts to prove your words, and all this is empty talk and your speculation. All these videos of yours are ordinary propaganda and they are not worth a damn cent. In fact, it’s funny to watch how you rush with this Katyn on different topics on this forum.
Who knows, does not scream. Whoever screams does not know ...

To me, anyway, who is guilty of the execution in Katyn, the USSR, whether Germany ... is a fait accompli of bygone days ...

All Western civilization throughout its history invaded somewhere, killed, hung and burned someone ... destroyed tens of millions of people around the world ... Destroyed the civilizations of the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans ... American Indians, indigenous peoples in Polynesia , in Asia .. And what am I now because of this to tear hair on my ass out something?
So you again sat in a puddle, dear.




And about the fact that someone there acknowledged .. Yes for American money they will sell their mother, not that they recognize Katyn.
You are absolutely ridiculous. Everything to you is western propaganda, regardless of documents and the fact that your own government admitted to Katyn massacre. And now you write that Putin admitted russian guilt for Katyn massacre for american money. This is insane what you write.

It is amusing to see you writting your stalinist propaganda in every topic on this forum and refusing to acknowlegde the truth despite the facts.

You constantly change subjects and excuse soviet union crimes.

Another user posted here links with russians admitting to it but you would not acknowledge the truth even if it hit you in the face. I did not even bother with posting those links to videos of russian government taking responsibility fot Katyn massacre, because you are stalinist apologist, so there is no point writting to you or providing links like I have done it before to videos, articles of professional historians, documents, as you will not acknowledge any fact with your stalinist propaganda.

Talking to Hitler fans or Stalin fans is an absolute waste of time. It is really pathetic to excuse any of these monsters.

So you are the one that constantly sit in the puddle as they say in russia. Again and again with every post that you write. You shame yourself more and more with every post trying to shift responsibility for your country's crimes on other countries and excusing mass murder of people.

As I wrote before, talking to Hitler fans or Stalin fans is absolutely pointless.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 12-31-2019 at 05:31 AM..
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Old 12-31-2019, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Preussen
450 posts, read 157,100 times
Reputation: 352
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Yes.

In 1990, the USSR admitted that the Katyn massacre was perpetrated by the NKVD under orders from Stalin.

That same year, Soviet and Russian sources began releasing documentation of the massacre (and other mass-slaughters of Poles), the cover-up, and future (during Khrushchev's rule) secret discussions of the continuing cover-up. The release of relevant documents continued over the years.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/15/w...s-in-1940.html

Vladimir Putin himself has admitted that the Stalin and the USSR were behind the massacre.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...n-1938727.html

Dmitry Medvedev admitted it, with documentation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-documents-web

The Russian Duma admitted it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...katyn-massacre

It takes a special kind of delusional gullibility to deny all of that.
You are correct. I never even imagined that some people could be so delusional about history. It really makes you wonder what stalinist and soviet propaganda could do to people's minds and perception of reality.

Now that particular poster writes that russian president and government admitted to those crimes because of american money. This is insane level of propaganda, lying and conspiracy theory.


And the truth by independent historians including russian independent historians who worked together with polish historians on gathering historic material and evidence he calls a "western agitation". It is ridiculous what he writes.


The same poster tried to argue that standard of living in Russia is higher than in western countries because Russia's overall gdp rankings. He compared standard of living in countries by overall gdp rankings and not by gdp per capita rankings, average wages, average life expectancy, average wages and how much average citizen can afford for those wages in their respective countries. According to his "rankings" of standard of living India would be higher than most of western european countries This poster just spreads his russian propaganda and don't even realize how clueless it makes him look.

You cannot reason with such people. As I sad there is no point talking to someone who supports either Hitler or Stalin. Supporters of such people will always either excuse or deny crimes commited by those monsters. But luckily the world knows the truth and their propaganda is useless.



But to answer the question of the topic "why did France give up so easily, when Germany invaded?
There are two parts of the answer.

A.Repatriations and limitations on Germany's army put on Germany after world war 1 caused the need to develop new warfare strategies and tactics while France was set to defensive, trench war like in the first world war. The need to develope brought the best in german generals, while the french generals were in stagnation when it comes to warfare strategy and tactics at least compared to german generals.

B. Once it was obvious that the war had been lost, the politicians and generals remembering the slaughter and trauma that the previous war had caused wanted to get any benefit in negotations that they could get, and save more pointless deaths among soldiers, before it would be to late for that as they knew the war had been already lost. So it could only get worse for them.

But the fact that french soldiers were cowards is one of the biggest myths in the history as they were prepared to fight till the very end for their country. It was generals and politicians who lacked the will to lead a war as they knew it had been already lost and as I said before, wanted to save soldiers life and gain the more benefits during negotiations when they still had the chance.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 12-31-2019 at 08:52 AM..
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