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References, please? I want to know where to read about that; I haven't come across it in my own reading, nor have I been able to bring it up in an online search.
The Horse, the Wheel and Language. Haplogroup assignments are from Eupedia.com.
Never said Yamnaya were only R1b. Also R1a and J2. The Indo-Aryans who entered India were mainly R1a.
Haven't read the Reich book, but he's at the center of the latest DNA discoveries. With the pace of discovery in DNA, as soon as a book is released it will be obsolete. Reich did release a book last year: A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived: The Human Story Retold Through Our Genes.
Last edited by CrazyDonkey; 04-23-2018 at 06:54 PM..
The Horse, the Wheel and Language. Haplogroup assignments are from Eupedia.com.
Never said Yamnaya were only R1b. Also R1a and J2. The Indo-Aryans who entered India were mainly R1a.
Haven't read the Reich book, but he's at the center of the latest DNA discoveries. With the pace of discovery in DNA, as soon as a book is released it will be obsolete. Reich did release a book last year: A Brief History of Everyone Who Ever Lived: The Human Story Retold Through Our Genes.
You keep saying "Yamnaya is R1b", so naturally, people are going to assume you mean it's pretty exclusively R1b. Thx for clarifying.
Yeah, I'm torn about getting the book, because in a couple of years, the info will have been superseded.
And the Hg assignments are what I was questioning. Thanks, I'll look at Expedia again.
The first empire was Sumer, which arose circa 5000 BCE to 4500 BCE and existed until 2000 BCE, before being over-run by the Gutians, who originated in the east near the Zagros Mountains.
Akkad was the second empire, arising about 3000 BCE and was also destroyed by the Gutians at the same time Sumer was over-run.
The Gutians had a series of "barracks emperors" for a few decades, and that allowed Akkad to drive them out eventually, but the Akkadians were unable to re-establish their empire.
Two other kingdoms or empires also arose about the same time as Akkad, and those are the Hittite and the Eblaite. The Elbaite kingdom/empire was short-lived, but it survived long enough to be the language bridge between Sumer & Akkad and Canaan.
The Amorite Empire --also known as the Babylonian Empire -- came out of that.
The Hittite Empire was destroyed by three separate groups of Barbarians around 1900 BCE, including the Celts, who migrated around Europe, which is why there is a Galicia in France, a Galicia in Spain, a Galicia in Turkey and a Galicia in Poland (but now within the border of Ukraine).
At the same time Sumer came to be, there were also civilizations in Egypt and also in the Indus Valley Region that were growing.
I think you misunderstand the nature of language.
In Gaelic, you have An dagada.
In English it means "An the good god."
An was the principal olden god of Sumer & Akkad, being the father of Enlil and Enki. It is the same as the olden Egyptian deity On(who was the father of Ptah, the Egyptian equivalent of the Sumerian/Akkadian Enki).
So does that mean Sumerians were in Ireland?
No, not hardly.Proto-Indo-Europeans had a spoken language (but no evidence of a written language necessary for an empire) from which cognates exist in other Indo-European languages. These cognates are typically related to family, such as father, mother, brother, sister, and water, rivers and lakes, home, food and deities.
Dyeus is equivalent to the Indus Valley Dyas-Pitar which is equivalent to the Greek Zeus or Roman Jupiter.
Those are examples of cognates, not evidence of empire.
I'm a y-DNA J2. Most sources show its origin as between the region between the Zagros and Caucus Mountains.
My paternal family origin is the United Kingdom.
J2 appears in about 3% of British people. My best guess is people from Pannonia, Macedonia or Roman Provinces in the Middle East who served with Roman legions in Britain fathered children there, or might have remained behind after Rome abandoned Britain.
You misunderstood me, and perhaps it was my fault for not being more clear. I do not believe there was an empire, or at least a civilized one, that expanded across the Eurasian continent.
The reason why I brought up religion is because just like languages, ancient proto religions can be reconstructed based off of the off shoot religions. I brought up the Mongol/Tatar sky god because I think it's an interesting form of convergent evolution where similar environment (steppe) created a similar religion (worshiping of a sky god). However now that Ruth mentions it, the Mongols/Tatars may have been influenced by early indo Europeans who successfully spread their religion, but not the language.
Now back to empires, there are two kinds, the first that most people think of are civilized/sedentary empires such as the Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans etc. But there is a second kind which most people forget which are the Nomadic empires. These include "empires" such as Cimmeria, Scythia, Sarmatia, Xiongnu, Kushan Empire, Xianbei, Hephthalite Empire, Hunnic Empire, Rouran, Göktürks, Uyghurs, Mongol Empire, Timurid Empire, etc. Now these two empire types are very different from one another and shouldn't be compared on equal terms. Also I'm not saying there was an expansive Indo-European nomadic empire that stretched from Europe to India, but I think it's possible of much smaller nomadic empire existing in central Asia that raided and pillaged neighboring regions and eventually broke apart and migrated around (as most nomadic empires have done).
Also FYI you don't need a written language to have an effective empire, the Incans didn't have a written language and I don't think anyone has doubts of their empire/civilization status.
You keep saying "Yamnaya is R1b", so naturally, people are going to assume you mean it's pretty exclusively R1b. Thx for clarifying.
I never said that (my emphasis added):
Post #45: "Yamnaya were primarily R1b."
Post #50: "Yamnaya (Indo-European) were mostly R1b."
Post #56: "PIE language speakers were primarily R1a and R1b. Theory is that Yamnaya (R1b) were originally cattle herders who migrated from NW Iran through the Caucasus to the Pontic Steppes."
Post #68: "...while the Yamnaya ("Indo-European") culture was primarily R1b."
I don't see how the fact that R1b took over Europe population-wise is news. That's been known for a long time. Did you notice, though, that the map at your Expedia link shows the highest concentration of R1b as being in Anatolia? That's the issue we've been disagreeing about. But the map would imply that R1b originated in Anatolia (or W Iran/Anatolia), and spread into the Balkans from there. Of course, we also know, that R1b migrated north across the Caucasus, into the steppes. What's surprising is that it dominated the steppe gene pool, at that time.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 04-24-2018 at 11:55 AM..
Here's some info on R1a from Eupedia. OP, you can see how superior technologies of the times (bronze weapons, chariots) facilitated the spread of Indo-Euro peeps. Much of this was before there was anything like a civilization; some of the spread was due to migrations after the ice age (into unoccupied lands in some cases), while some of it was military in nature. This took place over thousands of years, in different regions of Eurasia (a vast territory), though. So you can't say there was a centrally-coordinated effort. It's the result of the evolution and branching of a people over millennia.
Quote:
R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the northern and eastern Proto-Indo-European tribes, who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic people. The Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Yamna culture (3300-2500 BCE). Their dramatic expansion was possible thanks to an early adoption of bronze weapons and the domestication of the horse in the Eurasian steppes (circa 4000-3500 BCE). Individuals from the southern part of the Steppe are believed to have carried predominantly lineages belonging to haplogroup R1b (L23 and subclades), while the people of northern forest-steppe to the north would have belonged essentially to haplogroup R1a. The first expansion of the forest-steppe people occured with the Corded Ware Culture (see Germanic branch below). The migration of the R1b people to central and Western Europe left a vacuum in the southern steppe, which was filled by the R1a-dominant tribes with the expansion of the Catacomb culture (2800-2200 BCE). The forest-steppe origin of this culture is obvious from the usage of corded pottery and the abundant use of polished battle axes, the two most prominent features of the Corded Ware culture. This is also probably the time when the satemisation process of the Indo-European languages began, considering that the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian language groups belong to the same Satem isogloss and both appear to have evolved from the the Catacomb culture.
Ancient DNA testing has confirmed the presence of haplogroup R1a-M417 in samples from the Corded Ware culture in Germany (2600 BCE), from Tocharian mummies (2000 BCE) in Northwest China, from Kurgan burials (circa 1600 BCE) from the Andronovo culture in southern Russia and southern Siberia, as well as from a variety of Iron-age sites from Russia, Siberia, Mongolia and Central Asia.
I don't see how the fact that R1b took over Europe population-wise is news. That's been known for a long time. Did you notice, though, that the map at your Expedia link shows the highest concentration of R1b as being in Anatolia? That's the issue we've been disagreeing about. But the map would imply that R1b originated in Anatolia (or W Iran/Anatolia), and spread into the Balkans from there. Of course, we also know, that R1b pirated north across the Caucasus, into the steppes. What's surprising is that it dominated the steppe gene pool, at that time.
Two different questions:
1) Location of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) language, to which all known Indo-European languages can be traced. Archaeological, linguistic, and genetic evidence points strongly to that being the Pontic-Caspian Steppes.
2) Geographic origination of R1b y-DNA haplogroup. Eupedia's R1b migration map shows it originating in the paleolithic in Central Asia, east and south of the Caspian Sea (western Iran/Turkmenistan/Afghanistan), where R1 split into R1a and R1b.
The map you referred to was likely for a later subclade Z2103 subclade (2000-1200 BCE), possibly reflecting the Hittites/Luwians migrating from the Balkans. Anthony writes: "Pre-Anatolian languages probably were introduced to the lower Danube valley and perhaps to the Balkans about 4200-4000 BCE by the Suvarova migrants" and that perhaps "pre-Anatolian speakers founded Troy...around 3000 BCE" (p. 262). The Hittites don't show up until after 2000 BCE, with the Hittite Empire dating from 1650 BCE.
Another theory is that the Anatolian evolved from a language that preceded PIE (Maykop?), migrating through the Caucusus, being a cousin rather than a daughter language of PIE. We don't yet have y-DNA data for Maycop.
Last edited by CrazyDonkey; 04-24-2018 at 02:38 PM..
Here's some info on R1a from Eupedia. OP, you can see how superior technologies of the times (bronze weapons, chariots) facilitated the spread of Indo-Euro peeps. Much of this was before there was anything like a civilization; some of the spread was due to migrations after the ice age (into unoccupied lands in some cases), while some of it was military in nature. This took place over thousands of years, in different regions of Eurasia (a vast territory), though. So you can't say there was a centrally-coordinated effort. It's the result of the evolution and branching of a people over millennia.
Quote:
Most of the R1b found in Greece today is of the Balkanic Z2103 variety. There is also a minority of Proto-Celtic S116/P312 and of Italic/Alpine Celtic S28/U152. Z2103 could have descended from Albania or Macedonia during the Dorian invasion (see below), thought to have happened in the 12th century BCE. Their language appear to have been close enough to Mycenaean Greek to be mutually intelligible and easy for locals to adopt. The Mycenaeans might have brought some R1b (probably also Z2103) to Greece, but their origins can be traced back through archaeology to the Catacomb culture and the Seima-Turbino phenomenon of the northern forest-steppe, which would make them primarily an R1a tribe.
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