Why Spain did not take part in WW2? (general, European, raids)

[Max Sterling]

Originally Posted by maf763

Italian fascists were overthrown, fairly early into the Allied invasion of Italy. The logistics of crossing the English Channel to invade France and conquer Germany had not been worked out by the time the invasion of Sicily occurred. Invading Italy was an opportunity to tie up German troops, to the benefit of both the Soviet Union and the planners of D-Day. Without it, the success of a German invasion would have been far less likely.

I feel like regardless of tying up troops in Italy, D-Day would've succeeded anyways even if the casualties ended up being higher. Allies at that time had superiority in almost everything especially in the all important airpower arena. A few more divisions from Italy transferred to Normandy would've made things tougher, but that wouldn't have changed the outcome of D-Day and the Normandy campaign.

And with regards to Spain. Does it really matter if they entered the war on the Axis side or not? Were their troops even any good or were they of the crappy Italian soldier quality? Seems like all they could've provided was some supplies and logistics and some cannon fodder troops and that's about it. IE contribute about the same or less than Italy did.

[Cryptic]

Originally Posted by Max Sterling

Were their troops even any good or were they of the crappy Italian soldier quality?

The quality of their troops ranged from poorly equipped conscript soldiers with little training and little motivation to fight outside of Spain (majority) to a relatively small number of extremely dedicated and very combative volunteers. Franco then kept the majority home and safely out of the war. He then let the a portion of the smaller number volunteer themselves for the Eastern Front.

The Germans greatly valued the "Blue Division". The division was not only extremely combative against communists, but was also large and.... always kept at full strength with fresh volunteers. Franco, however, knew that most of his army was not 'Blue Division' level.

[Big Motor]

Originally Posted by Jorge ChemE

Sorry for the ignorance, it's been a long time I don't read about WW2 since I focused on other periods of time. The only thing I know about it was my grandfather testimony. He told me he was on Franco's train, as a very young worker with his father, they both worked as mechanics in Franco's train, Franco went to an interview with Hitler.

My great grandfather barely saw Hitler with an expression of anger, he left soon and that is all I know about this topic. As far as I know Spain only gave the Blue Division, volunteer soldiers to fight in Russia with Germany troops. What was the historical reason Spain did not take part in World War 2? Would the fate of the war have changed? Spain was destroyed but IMO Spain is a good strategic territory to take control of the seas (Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean) and also what about North Africa? To sum all those factors, would have made a difference?

I think that Spain was in chaos, before and during WWII, and could not help Hitler. He was friendly to him though, and it was reciprocated.
Franco allowed Guernica to be bombed by the Nazis, who tried out tactics there. They bombed civilians and it was a war crime which Franco embraced to stay in power.
And from what little I have read, Franco may have had a really tenuous hold on things.
There were 7,000 Germans in Spain in 1937, on Franco's side. But there were 5,000 Germans and Austrians there, as part of the International Brigades {Communists}.
Personally, I don't think the issue was settled when WWII broke out; and Spain must have been a charnel house.

[arctic_gardener]

You make it sound like WW2 was between good and evil and the choice was obvious.

Both sides were evil in WW2, just to differing degrees.

[salomon]

In the first World War ,Spain did not participate for 2 reasons either.

1)Because the Spaniards were divided in between the 2 opponents.-

2)Because the spaniards do not saw any reason or convenience to go to that war .-

In the Second World War these 2 reasons remained valid.But also we had just finished, of a terrible civil war and all the Spaniads we prayed for not going back into another war .

It was a miracle, to not get into war.-Because Hitler was in the border of the Pyrinees Mountains threathening o cross Spain to take Gibraltar and Franco refused to allow that to pass go with pretexts and very good words.-

The Spanish governement had to do wonders dancing on a wire between the 2 contenders to avoid entering
the War.It was a fascinating diplomatic history.
That is their main merit
.-

[farinello]

Originally Posted by Cryptic

Very well said. Franco knew that Spain was exhausted from their civil war, that his army had a lot of reluctant conscripts, that Spanish cities were wide open to British air raids, and that anti Franco resistance groups could multiply with British support.

In addition, Franco just did not like the personalities of the leading Nazis, not did he like their pagan imagery. Reports of SS troops vandalizing Catholic road side shrines in France were a footnote in the battle successes, but were important to Franco.

El Movimiento, the conglomerate of factions that supported Franco, had a large number of aliadófilos. There were many monarchists and conservatives that had ties with England.

When foreign minister Serrano Sunyer fell, 1942, a Falangista and a personal friend of A. Hitler, he was replaced by Count Jordana, aliadófilo, pro-British.

Allied poured millions to bribe Franco's generals, Franco knew and he could not care less. Allies practically controlled Spain since 1942, they forced the witdrawal of División Azul from Russia - considered the best foreign troops by Germans, only after the Finnish. They stopped the supply of wolfram from Spanish mines.

Franco was VERY Catholic and pro-Jewish, he won the war thanks to Morrocan Jews that were protected, Himmler called them "Franco's Jews". He was furious when Germans invaded Catholic Poland and when he heard about the holocaust.

[John-UK]

Franco met Hitler in October 1940. Hitler said Britain was about to fall. Franco and his administration knew full well Germany had just lost the air war over southern England, so viewed Hitler with distain. Right after the British retreat at Dunkirk, up until October 1940, Franco knew:

• The German surface fleet was largely destroyed by the British in Norway.
• The British had the largest navy in the world.
• The British neutralised most of the French fleet by sinking or starving it of fuel.
• The British disabled a major part of the Italian fleet.
• The Royal Navy was freely moving around the Mediterranean.
• The Royal Navy was starving Germany of food and resources with the effective blockade.
• The RAF beat the Luftwaffe over Dunkirk.
• The RAF Beat the Luftwaffe in the misnomer the Battle of Britain as Britain was never threatened.
• The British were engaging the Italians in East Africa.
• The British were decimating the Italian army in North Africa.
• The British were about to take all the southern Mediterranean coast.
• Germany was being bombed from the air with raids of over 100 bombers.
• A massive British air bombing fleet was being assembled.
• Why France fell so quickly.

After the small BEF (only 9% of all allied forces in France) left France in June 1940, the British went on the rampage. Franco and his advisers were not fools and knew the situation up to that point and implied to Hitler the British would win, or at least Germany would conquer, and he would not join in with Germany, fearing British occupation of Spanish territory. The Turkish ambassador also stated Britain will win as it has a pool of men in its empire that could to create an army of 45 million (later an army of 2.6 million moved into Burma). Franco got it right.

[farinello]

And those that financed Franco from London during the war -English origin Sherry producers and cattle raising Spanish aristocracy whose children had English nannies - were. of course pro-English. Domeck, Byass, Terrey, etc.They were paramount.

[TonyT]

There is this enduring myth, created by Franco and perpetuated by his worshippers, that Spain never wanted to be involved in the war and that Franco did everything he could to prevent Spain from taking part in a war he knew was unwinnable. But the truth is, Franco wanted to join in the worst way. His pronouncements that Spain was “neutral” in the conflict were a sham and the extraordinary efforts made to assist the Axis war effort by providing critical raw materials expose that fact, as do his own words and those of his minions.

Before Hitler and Franco met at Hendaye in October 1940, there were two initial contacts between the Spanish government and Germany to negotiate the terms for Spain to enter the war on the Axis side. When the meeting between Hitler and Franco at Hendaye (which Franco requested) finally took place he stated "Spain would gladly fight at Germany's side". Foreign Minister Serrrano Suner stated after the war that if Hitler had guaranteed at this meeting that French Morocco would be given to Spain, then Franco, who was obsessed with this territory, would have pledged to enter the Axis and the war, immediately.

On January 20, 1941 at a meeting with the German ambassador, Franco, stung by the insinuation that he no longer had faith in the Axis cause said that "his faith in the victory of Germany was still the same" and that "it was not a question at all whether Spain would enter the war, that had been decided at Hendaye. It was merely a question of when". On January 23rd, he reinforced this statement saying that he believed strongly in the Axis cause out of thanks for what Germany and Italy had done for him during the Civil War, and that he had not moved "one millimeter from his Germanophile course".

During a meeting between Franco and Mussolini on February 13th, Franco said "Spain wishes to enter the war, her fear is to enter too late". He followed up by stating "Spanish entry into the war depends on Germany more than Spain herself: the sooner Germany sends help, the sooner Spain will make her contribution to the Fascist world cause".

At a commemoration on July 17, 1941 marking the fifth anniversary of the start of the Civil War, Franco gave a fiery speech in which he praised the German invasion of Russia saying "at this moment when the German armies lead the battle for which Europe and Christianity have for so many years longed, and in which the blood of our youth is to mingle with that of our comrades of the Axis. I do not harbour any doubt about the result of the war. The die is cast and the first battle was won here in Spain. The war is lost for the Allies". When Foreign Minister Suner met with the German ambassador shortly after the speech, Suner expressed a belief that Franco might have gone too far, exposing to the British and Americans "the true position of Spain". Suner went on to say that up until now, the Allies believed that he was the one trying to push Franco into joining the Axis, while Franco was carefully and skillfully playing the Germans in order to maintain Spain's neutrality and keep it out of Hitler's grasp. Suner concluded, correctly, "that illusion has now been taken from them".

Now contrast Franco's statements with those made by Hitler with respect to Spain joining the Axis and entering the war. On September 28, 1940, Hitler met with Italian Foreign Minister Galeazzo Ciano. He summed up thusly the initial proposal offered by Foreign Minister Suner to guarantee Spanish assistance in the war effort: Germany would supply all the food, fuel, military equipment, and all the troops and weapons needed to seize Gibraltar and French Morocco in exchange for a promise of Spanish friendship. He ended the discussion by saying "as a German, one feels toward the Spanish almost like a Jew, who wants to make business out of the holiest possessions of mankind" adding that he was against Spain entering the war "because it would cost more than it is worth". After spending nine hours meeting with Franco at Hendaye, Hitler found the whole endeavor so pointless, he told Mussolini "Rather than go through that again, I would prefer to have 3 or 4 teeth taken out". And Hitler's attitude toward Spanish intervention never really changed. Yes, he did attempt at certain points to try and get Franco to commit something, anything, to aiding the Axis cause. But his efforts were lackluster at best because there was no real upside to having Spain join the war.

The bottom line is that Franco was nothing but a cheap opportunist who wanted a very big something for a whole lot of nothing and survived the war, not through sheer cunning and foresight, but because Hitler was never dumb enough to pay the extortion rate Franco was asking. If Franco really wanted to be neutral he could have done exactly what his fellow Fascist in Portugal, Salazar, did...declare it outright, stick to it, keep his head down, mouth shut, and wait for the war to end. Instead he tried to dance with the Devil and got caught at it. Which is why, as punishment, the Allies and their friends treated Spain as a pariah state after the war and prevented Spain from entering the U.N. until 1955.

[salomon]

Those of us who lived through the post-war experiencie of the Spanish Civil War are amazed by
the historians who speak of that time with only the information Documents and their antipathy to Franco who do not wish to ack nowledge anything positive of the Dictator.- , without having lived the experience of what he thought the Spanish population and the very heterogeneus political groups that supported him( (many pro-allies).-

1)The Spanish population of any political opinion in more than 90% lived between ruins and hungry and did not whant any another war.-

2)Franco was not stupid he was reputed to be someone very clever.
He was a conservative catholic military with and ideology completely different from that of Musulini and Hitler who were revolutionary agitators.-And he was only grateful to their for theim military help in the civil
war and for their hatred of Comunism.For example.Franco got tired of saving jews.Hitler hated Franco as is know.-And Franco was corresponded.-

3)Franco was head of a conglomerate of very heterogeneus political groups and a large part even among
his generals sympathized more with of the allies than with the Germans.-

4)Franco forbade the passage of the germans through Spain to attack Gibraltar and that is an indisputable
fact.
Knowing what was being played by the countries that they said not to Hitler.-

5)Franco knew by his friend Admiral Canaris chief of the German Secret Service but anti-nazi that Germany could not win the War.Hitler murdered Canaris for these things when he knew it.-

With this real data as Franco no could go to War .- Although he spoke much of his gratitude to Hitler and Musulini specially of realism forced because the Germans were in the Pyrenees .-
If in addition the whole Country including his family prayed every day asking GOD to free us from another
WAR.-