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The Japanese gained one negotiated item; Hirohito's status as ceremonial emperor.
Correct me if I am wrong but that was not negotiated as part of the surrender, it was never part of the stated terms, but just done at MacArthur's request as part of the occupation of Japan.
To be honest I'm not sure. MacArthur may have correctly decided that discretion was the better part of valor and symbolism had its place.
To be honest I'm not sure. MacArthur may have correctly decided that discretion was the better part of valor and symbolism had its place.
Big Mac called an audible. A good move, but probably a bit problematic as well.
One must remember, when the Allies were occupying Germany, Austria, and Italy, the Germans ,et al may not have liked it initially, but they were being occupied by their own brethren, so to speak.
That was not the case with Japan. Not surprising that a bit of improvising was needed.
Japan's reasons for attacking some American military outpost in the middle of the Pacific Ocean has always been a confusing move to me. Not sure what they were ever hoping to accomplish there. Invading China or USSR would have made more sense if resources are what they needed. Attacking Stalin instead would have made things particularly interesting, since the Soviets would have also been forced to fight on two fronts.
Japan's reasons for attacking some American military outpost in the middle of the Pacific Ocean has always been a confusing move to me. Not sure what they were ever hoping to accomplish there. Invading China or the Soviets would have made more sense if resources are what they needed.
What on Earth are you talking about?
Japan didn't vaguely need 'resources' - they very specifically needed oil. They had already invaded China (how did you manage to miss that fact?) whgich had little oil and even less infrastructure for developing what fields where were, and as for the USSR? Their major oil reserves are far to the East (the minor Sakhalin fields weren't discovered until the later years of the Soviet Union) and in any case the mauling the Red Army inflicted on Japan at Khalkhin Gol in 1939 (when the Kwantung Army picked a fight along the border) was enough to convince Japan to leave the USSR alone.
Sheesh...
Japan either needed to seize the oil available in the Dutch East Indies, or fold. They declined to fold. That was a long-shot gamble, but having made it, they then followed the logical course given that decision. That course included trying to hit the U.S. hard enough for that Washington would agree to terms of some sort. Again, the long-shot in the first place was unwise, but once settled upon war with the U.S. logically followed. To move southeast but leave the Philippines alone would have been an order of magnitude more idiot.
They probably should have worked more closely with Hitler then (to play devil's advocate and assume Japan wanted to "win" anything). They were never going to attack the USA into giving them oil. Horrible miscalculation. But WW2 was full of those.
They probably should have worked more closely with Hitler then (to play devil's advocate and assume Japan wanted to "win" anything). They were never going to attack the USA into giving them oil. Horrible miscalculation. But WW2 was full of those.
Hitler couldn't have done much for them; he had more than enough of his own problems, and there wasn't anything he could have done that would have helped them. Their Number One need was strategic resources, and he never had enough of those to support his own war effort, much less theirs.
And the point of attacking the United States was never to get us to change our minds and give them oil - it was to hurt us so badly that we couldn't interfere with them stealing it from the Dutch East Indies. It may have been a terrible choice, but it really was the only thing they could do short of giving up completely on their expansionist strategic goals and just going back home.
Attacking Stalin instead would have made things particularly interesting, since the Soviets would have also been forced to fight on two fronts.
The Japanese were beaten twice by the Soviets, the last in 1939. The Soviets had armour the Japanese could not match. Locking horns with the Soviets was what the Japanese feared.
Japan's reasons for attacking some American military outpost in the middle of the Pacific Ocean has always been a confusing move to me. Not sure what they were ever hoping to accomplish there. Invading China or USSR would have made more sense if resources are what they needed.
One of the two turning points of WW2 was the Battle of Moscow in Dec 1941. That was when Germany and Japan were doomed. The Germans failed in the west being stopped by the British and now stopped in the east by the Soviets.
Japan thought Germany would definitely win defeating the USSR soon after. The German defeat at Moscow would ensure Germany would not defeat the USSR.
The Japanese entered WW2 on a presumption they would be linking up with Germany, transpiring they were alone fighting two massive powers with another pinning their forces down and eventually directly fighting all three. Not what they wanted.
The Japanese presumed the USA would not be in the war, not having the stomach for a fight after the Pearl Harbor attack, pursuing a peace deal;
Japan would not attack the British empire, Dutch empire and the USA unless Germany declared war on the USA. To the Japanese, the USA would not fight after the USA Pacific fleet was destroyed with Germany declaring war on them. If Germany said "no" to declaring war on the USA, Japan would never have attacked and there would be no Pacific war. The two theatres were linked.
Japan did not want to face alone the USA and the British empire. the worst case scenario. And that is what happened. The Germans attempted to get the Japanese to attack the British in the Far East to divert the British away from Europe. The UK was amassing a large air fleet and also had the world's largest navy. They would not sit by for long only fighting in the desert. The reason Germany attacked the USSR was to get their resources to fight the coming air war with the British. The Japanese repeatedly refused to declare war. Only when the Japanese thought the USSR was about to fall they joined in. The USSR kept 40 divisions opposite the Japanese Kwantung army all though WW2, with superior armour to the Japanese.
Japan received assurances from Germany in the Spring of 1941. that they would declare war on the USA. Japan, economically could not sustain war of any length of time against any major power by itself, either the UK or the USA. Especially a war strung over a vast front. They imported most raw materials with their industry primarily artisan based, with little mass production. If going it alone, what the hell attacking the USA and British Empire was to achieve with no back up occupation force at Pearl Harbor defies belief. The Pearl Harbor attack was to fend off the US navy while they gain as much resource rich territory as possible in the south while the USSR threat is moved away from their north in China by the Germans. To Japan the key was the defeat of the USSR, which by Oct/Nov 1941 they thought was a foregone conclusion.
The Japanese thought the USA would not attack them if their Pacific fleet was wiped out. They thought the Americans had no stomach for fighting. The Americans never assisted the British in 1940, which was a clear sign to the Japanese. In winter the Japanese sailed a huge fleet from Japan half way across the Pacific which the Americans never even detected or knew was was sailing. No US vessels or planes approached this fleet, again reinforcing their earlier view. When at Hawaii they then attacked completely by surprise.
All through WW2 the Soviets had approx 40 divisions (most armoured) in Siberia and the Soviet Far East facing the Japanese. Without Germany fighting the USSR anticipating a quick German win, the Japanese would never have attacked the USA and the British Empire. It was madness to do so unilaterally and would entail certain defeat - even the Japanese knew that.
The Japanese were to eliminate the US Pacific fleet. The US Atlantic fleet would be occupied by the German U-Boats, if the USA pursued a war. The carriers got away at Pearl Harbor. If the carriers were sunk, they would not have been on the defensive by June 1942, giving them far more breathing space and lots more with the anticipated defeat of the USSR within months by the Germans. If the US carriers were sunk along with the US Pacific fleet, and the USSR defeated by summer 1942 by the Germans, Japan would be in a very strong position.
The Japanese gained far more territory than they gambled on. They were one day away in Singapore from surrendering, but the British beat them to the white flag. They were expecting more protracted battles in Malaya/Burma and even maybe in the Philippines.
Using some common sense tells you the Japanese were not banking on being alone fighting the world's two largest economic powers. They were expecting at least the USSR to be neutralised or eliminated, the USA not to be actively involved,with the Japanese only fighting the British empire. And then some military aid from the Germans would be nice if it came. The link was enacted with 41 U-Boats operating from Penang. The Germans after defeating the Soviets then would engage the British diverting them away from fighting the Japanese in Burma. Getting rid of the British and the Soviets was a major prize for Japan, with Germany doing the latter and both doing the former. So was the notion.
Wages of Destruction by Prof Adam Tooze in quotes:
The tripartite pact was signed in Sept 1940. If one is attacked the others come to their aid;
"The real nightmare of German strategy was the possibility that Japan might come to terms with the United States, leaving Germany to fight Britain and maybe America alone. To forestall this possibility, Hitler had offered to declare war on the United States in conjunction with Japan already in the Spring of 1941.";
Germany had offered to declare war on the USA before the June 1941 attack on the USSR;
"But the Japanese had refused to commit themselves and instead entered into a last round of negotiations with the USA.";
"It was not until October and the fall of the Konoe government that Berlin could feel sure that the Japanese-USA talks were going nowhere.";
"When in November 1941 Tokyo began to signal that Japan was about to commit itself against the West, it was a cause of relief, bordering on euphoria in Berlin. Finally Hitler and Ribbentrop had the chance to complete the global strategic alliance they had been hoping for since 1938. And they did not hesitate.";
The Germans immediately started to revise the Tripartite pact, knowing of the Japanese commitment to war, at the German's insistence;
"Without prior knowledge of the Japanese timetable for a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, Hitler pledged himself to following Japan in a declaration of war on the United States.";
7 Dec 1941, Japanese attack the USA at Pearl Harbor and British territories in Malaya and Hong Kong;
The amended Tripartite pact was signed by all, between the 7 Dec 1941, the attacks on the USA and British Empire, and Germany declaring war on the USA on 11 Dec 1941;
11 Dec 1941 Germany declares war on the USA;
Wages of Destruction is clear that the Germans were informed by the Japanese in November 1941 that they were to declare war. The attacks on the USA and British Empire was no surprise to Hitler. He just never knew when or where.
Wages of Destruction also states that Germany was repeatedly attempting to get Japan to declare war on the British empire. The Japanese knew exactly what the Germans wanted and what they would do. It all fits.
As it turned out:
The USSR was not defeated and maintained a large army opposite the Japanese - the Japanese had already been mauled by the Soviets in Manchuria in 1939;
The USA did not recoil back from a fight making a peace deal, waging a full war on the Japanese;
Japan was facing the worst case scenario, the scenario it feared - fighting alone against the British empire and USA, the world's two largest economic superpowers;
This was not in the forecasting. The German army defeated militarily superior France within weeks and since June 1941 were mauling the USSR so badly it was obvious to the Japanese in late 1941 the USSR would be defeated;
The week in which the Japanese attacked the USA and British Empire, the Soviets counter attacked at Moscow with a battering ram of superior T-34 tanks pushing the Germans back taking 30,000 prisoners, so ending any chance of Germany defeating the USSR in one swoop. A protracted war against the USSR would ensue;
In Spring 1941, the Germans feared fighting the USA & the British alone - a worst case scenario for them. They were desperately worse off, fighting the British, USA and the USSR alone;
If the Soviet counter attack had been one month earlier the Japanese would not have attacked the British and the USA - and most probably signed a pact with the USA which was in ongoing talks virtually to the attack on the British, Dutch and Americans;
Last edited by John-UK; 03-06-2019 at 04:03 AM..
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