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I think with religion, there's always going to be someone who will use it as a power grab to control other people. Look at Scientology and then look at Christianity. A lot of people have power-grabbed their way to the top and I always have doubts about how sincere they are when they profess their faith. I always think their main religion is power, and they're addicted to the rush it brings. They just adapt the power trip to whatever mountain they want to climb.
I also feel you can add politicians to this list. If Trump had not had so much money, maybe he would have started his own religion. Right now I wonder if politics is now his religion and naturally, being a president would propel him to the top, just like Billy Graham and David Miscavige went to the top in their religions.
I'm not trying to start a political discussion here, but I'm trying to say that anyone can make anything their religion and when humans make power into a religion, anything can happen. Usually it's only good for them but bad for everyone else.
From my understanding, Buddhism was also present in Rome in the 5th century,...
And also Egypt and everywhere else in the Middle East and a large part of the Mediterranean.
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Originally Posted by Quietude
After all, Christianity evolved and developed by the century, if not the decade, in ways good and bad.
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Originally Posted by craigiri
To say nothing of the amount of paid and powerful positions that hierarchies like Catholicism provides ... plenty of opportunities for advancement and control.
That was John the Bishop of Rome.
In 533 CE, Justinian, the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, appointed John as the head of the church and the "chief persecutor of heretics" (yes, that's in the text of the edict).
The first thing John did was start torturing and murdering clergy who did not believe exactly as he did.
Previously, Emperor Theodosius (Western Rome) had issued edicts banning other flavors of christianity under pain of death.
So, the reason christians are the Nicaean flavor and not other flavors of christianity like Manichean, Nestorian, Alexandrian and such, is because of imperial edict.
Bishops who smelled like Alexandrians or Nestorians or Manicheans were tortured and murdered and replaced with Nicaean yes-men.
Later, you had the wholesale slaughter of Germanic and other tribes who didn't want to convert to christianity.
John created an Imperial Church that mirrored Imperial Rome. Originally, bishops reported to cardinals who reported to metropolitans, who reported to primates, but primates and metropolitans aren't part of the scheme any more, but both are included in the pope's title.
Later popes took control of corporations and were grantors of corporations.
As a municipality, trade union or guild, or any other organization, you had to get permission from the local bishop to incorporate, and of course, pay a hefty fee to the church.
Everyone had to get permission from local bishops to conduct business and as a merchant if you failed to do that, you were persona non gratis and your goods would be seized and you'd be thrown in jail.
A lot people claim that -- the papal seal which grants you authority to incorporate or conduct business -- is the "Mark of the Beast."
Battle of Grunwald.
605 years ago it was the last war/battle in which knights --in armor -- fought.
Poland rose to the status of "Empire" in the 15th Century.
The Kingdoms of Poland and Lithuania joined forces to defeat the Christians.....the Teutonic Knights and the Holy Roman Empire, who attempted to conquer Poland and Lithuania in order to convert them to Christianity, even though their leaders had already became Christians.
The leaders of Poland and Lithuania were forcibly converting their people to Christianity under penalty of death....it just wasn't happening fast enough for some people,... you know how it is.
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Originally Posted by Quietude
Consider the possibility of the Crusades happening anyway, just based on different religious conflicts.
Buddhist Crusades is an oxymoron.
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Originally Posted by elvis44102
it was my understanding that Buddhism is NOT a religion but a philosophy and it is quite consistent to be a Christian and also Buddhist
That's right. You don't pray to Buddha, you pray with Buddha. There's a huge difference.
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Originally Posted by Old Gringo
Any fantasy "what if" questions regarding an alternate view of history are absurd, actually.
Not in the face of clear and overwhelming evidence.
Christianity in its earliest forms, and Christianity as a singular bureaucratic entity supported by the state, were very different things.
It began as a religion going up, catching on with the slaves and plebeians in the empire. The message of the lowest becoming the highest, and of eternal rewards for temporal suffering on Earth, resonated best with those who had the least hope of ever seeing better days. The practices of the early Christians mirrored the virtues enumerated by the Sermon on the Mount.
It rose from the lower classes and began to spread among some of the aristocrats, especially Roman women who went on to influence their husband's choices. A bureaucratic structure arose, the Catholic Church, and declared itself the keepers of the dogma. It was well organized, far reaching and became a de facto sub Roman government, albeit one with influence limited to the followers.
Ultimately it became a religion going down from above. Once made the official religion of the empire, it was now a religion imposed, its status as a sub government was out in the open. The emphasis shifted from the virtues of Christianity to the bureaucratic needs of the church. It became a religion imposed by swordpoint, especially successful under Charlemagne. The survival of the institution took precedence over the purity of practice. It no longer had much in common with its original form.
Is there a reason to think that the same thing would have happened if Buddhism had made a successful transition from cult to state backed religion? Is there reason to think that it could have avoided such a fate? Would Buddhism have transformed the Roman empire to the same degree that the Roman empire would have transformed Buddhism?
Not in the face of clear and overwhelming evidence.
As I said earlier, if the religion couldn't be used to the benefit of the empire, the empire would not have selected it as the established religion of the empire.
If Buddhism absolutely can't be adapted in any way to suit imperial purposes, then it would not be selected as the imperial religion. And that's the OP's question.
As I said earlier, if the religion couldn't be used to the benefit of the empire, the empire would not have selected it as the established religion of the empire.
If Buddhism absolutely can't be adapted in any way to suit imperial purposes, then it would not be selected as the imperial religion. And that's the OP's question.
This is, of course, correct. Everything, even in the modern era, is decided upon by our "empire" as to whether it benefits their ideal of the establishment.
For example, the reason pot was illegal....or that booze is favored....or that mind-expanding stuff is illegal (mushrooms, etc.) is specifically because a government wants people to think and act in a certain way. Any religion or substance which changes that is going to be frowned upon.
Tens of millions might be ruined by drink, BUT you won't have a glass of wine and start thinking (as a result) "you know, this thing of getting up every morning and joining the rat race is getting old". You won't take a couple shots of whiskey and think "Why do I have to sign up for Selective Service?" - or "You know, I don't need a big house or fancy car, I just want to live simply"....
No, none of those things benefits a growing GDP and the control that a state desires (and a state is really nothing except for other people....in charge)...
If it sounds like a plot...well, it is. There are many people who only feel pleasure in controlling others. They simply cannot handle the idea that someone might be happy with reducing their income or living in simpler fashion...there are so many negatives to it. Living simpler gives one more time to think...they might vote more. They may attend more protests and become more active...and find out what is going on around them.
It pays for Governments or Empires to keep the citizens on the straight and narrow as well as provide them with stories of why things are so terrible. Without Christianity, would Black Folks have insisted on a peaceful revolution (MLK, Lewis, etc.)? I doubt it. Same goes with many of the poor hordes...you get back to the old Marx things about religion being the "opiate of the people".
Buddhism would have been closer to giving mushrooms to the population and saying "hey, here...think deeply about materialism and everything else and work out your own conclusions about how to live".
Such a thing would be death to empire in the daze of old.
It's virtually impossible to view ourselves accurately in the scope of history, but this particular tendency may be on the wane. Not to say Government wants you to open your mind, but at least some of it understands they have to back off a bit.
From my understanding, Buddhism was also present in Rome in the 5th century, and Buddhism would have filled a similar role to Christianity when it came to replacing the quickly obsolescing Roman Classical Religion people were becoming disillusioned with. Buddhist monastaries would have preserved Roman works, and would not have suppressed scientific research the way the Christians did. there also probably wouldn’t have been witch hunts or pogroms. Would anything else have changed?
Imagine if instead of seeing the Chi Rho, Constantine saw a Dharma Wheel?
I imagine that we would be be behind by about 400 years.
"From 60 and 78 AD,:21-22 the Greek physician Pedanius Dioscorides wrote a five volume book, De Materia Medica, covering over 600 plants and coining the term materia medica. It formed the basis for many medieval texts, and was built upon by many middle eastern scientists during the Islamic Golden Age"
These books were the basic of most modern Pharma up until the "chemical and synthetic age" of the last 100 years.
While Islam and others were innovating:
"After the 5th century fall of the Western Roman Empire, medicinal knowledge in Europe suffered due to the loss of Greek medicinal texts and a strict adherence to tradition"
Finally the Arabic books were translated into Latin and then with the printing press the ideas spreak (1500 or after).....
As I said earlier, if the religion couldn't be used to the benefit of the empire, the empire would not have selected it as the established religion of the empire.
If Buddhism absolutely can't be adapted in any way to suit imperial purposes, then it would not be selected as the imperial religion. And that's the OP's question.
The Mongols adopted Tibetan Buddhism in parts of their empire so it is possible.
The Mongols adopted Tibetan Buddhism in parts of their empire so it is possible.
"Mongols adopted Tibetan Buddhism in parts of their empire" is not the same thing as saying, "Genghis Khan made Buddhism the mandatory religion of his empire.
It is my understanding the Emperor Constantine sought to put an end to Pagan/Christian battling by bastardizing the word "Pagan" and endorsing Christianity, the reason being that Christians were willing to die for their beliefs and Pagan were not. That trait made Christians unbeatable.
Today's Christianity is actually a blend of yesterday's Paganism and Christianity. Pagan elements include the halo, the Easter bunny, the shape of the church door, the virgin birth, the selection of Sunday as the day of worship. Here's a reference.
All of what you said is true, and I'm surprised more Christians don't know it.
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