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Old 06-28-2020, 09:35 PM
 
17,666 posts, read 15,092,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar Danneskjold View Post
In sum, the Soviets have committed a democide of 61,911,000 people, 7,142,000 of them foreigners. This staggering total is beyond belief. But, as shown in Figure 1.1, it is only the prudent, most probable tally, in a range from an highly unlikely, low figure of 28,326,000 (4,263,000 foreigners); and an equally unlikely high of 126,891,000 (including 12,134,000 foreigners). This is a range of uncertainty in our democide estimates--an error range--of 97,808,000 human beings.

In sum, it's la-la as usual.

No proofs. None whatsoever, sorry.

 
Old 06-29-2020, 04:03 AM
Status: "Deleted Account" (set 2 days ago)
 
86 posts, read 7,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
In sum, it's la-la as usual.

No proofs. None whatsoever, sorry.
LMAO...cause you think that people committing Genocide and mass murder have an accountant standing right there ticking off people's names and recording death numbers...

Even at 50 Million, I'm low-balling estimates under 50% of what they might have been...

it's been over 100 years, you can't even go and dig up the bodies...he buried the bodies, burned down the towns, ripped down the statues, rewrote the books....you know...like ISIS did when they rampaged through non-muslim areas...like people are doing today.
 
Old 06-29-2020, 11:51 AM
 
17,666 posts, read 15,092,768 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar Danneskjold View Post
LMAO...cause you think that people committing Genocide and mass murder have an accountant standing right there ticking off people's names and recording death numbers...

Even at 50 Million, I'm low-balling estimates under 50% of what they might have been...

it's been over 100 years, you can't even go and dig up the bodies...he buried the bodies, burned down the towns, ripped down the statues, rewrote the books....you know...like ISIS did when they rampaged through non-muslim areas...like people are doing today.

These are the key words here, see?

"I," "low-balling estimates."
And who are you?
Just another person who likes to create the hysteria of the boogie man out there.

Why?

Because it suits your agenda, that real numbers don't serve too well.
 
Old 06-30-2020, 01:10 PM
 
181 posts, read 19,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I challenge the figure of 20 million. The entire population of the Soviet Union was about 125 million around 1900. In 1940, that population was 170.6 million. This was slightly less than the increase in population in the USA from this same period. In 1900, the US population was 76 million. In 1940 it was 132 million. US population growth is greater during this period, but not incredibly so.

The communists cannot be blamed for all deaths during this period either. For example, I would give at least half the blame for the deaths during the Russian Civil War of 1917-1920 to the whites. The Tsarist system inevitably lead to revolution.

In any event, these figures don't come close to showing twenty million deaths because of the communists.

I want to be exact though. It doesn't make a lot of difference to me whether Stalin murdered five million people or twenty million. Either number makes him a blood thirsty butcher.
I agree with your "It doesn't make a lot of difference to me whether Stalin murdered five million people or twenty million." Total disregard of values of individual human life and destiny.
There was no real communism ever on this planet. Basically it is just a stolen Biblical idea tied to material world. Stalin just had more room and material under his control and fantasy.
 
Old 06-30-2020, 05:32 PM
 
3,780 posts, read 1,442,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Duval View Post
I agree with your "It doesn't make a lot of difference to me whether Stalin murdered five million people or twenty million." Total disregard of values of individual human life and destiny.
There was no real communism ever on this planet. Basically it is just a stolen Biblical idea tied to material world. Stalin just had more room and material under his control and fantasy.
That's true, all the regimes that flew the banner of communism were in fact socialist in nature. What they practiced were varying degrees of Soviet style socialism, though they tweaked it to satisfy their own needs (Mao's China deviated from the Soviet Union).
 
Old Yesterday, 10:28 AM
 
181 posts, read 19,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
That's true, all the regimes that flew the banner of communism were in fact socialist in nature. What they practiced were varying degrees of Soviet style socialism, though they tweaked it to satisfy their own needs (Mao's China deviated from the Soviet Union).
Yes, there was no socialist system before Soviet one, even that one was not planned but built on the fly, plan was for World size Socialism that after deep internal struggle ended up creating single Socialist country with potentiality ruled by dictator. Humans were considered as production means as property of the state physically and 'spiritually'. Kind of what they try to create worldwide now.
 
Old Yesterday, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Hillsboro Beach
647 posts, read 1,097,388 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
The major difference between Stalin and Hitler though, is that Stalin was pursuing his goals within the frame of his own nation, in the country he lived in.


Hitler's plans/actions involved other nations/countries.
Wrong ! Way before Stalin and during Stalin dictatorship, the soviets were spreading their abhorrent ideology all over the World. The Stalinism which is one of the forms of the Communism ordered the intromission of their ideology in Spain in 1936 to start the Sovietization of Europe by the western. That was the cause of the Civil War in Spain where more than one million Spaniards died as the consequence of the Communism. Hitler was not worse than Stalin and Stalin was not worse than Hitler. Both were genocides like Mao, Kim Il Sung, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez, Maduro, Milosevic, Erich Honecker in East Germany, Ceausecu in Romania, Josiph Broz Tito in Yugoeslavia, Vladimir Ilich Lenin, Trotsky, Heydrich in Prague and many more that I can't account at this moment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_k...munist_regimes

Even I do not trust Wikipedia at all, this link above somehow resumes real facts of what Communism is. Of course there is much more information about that in detail that would horrify to the most understanding reader of the matter.

Unfortunately in America today, many people are infatuated with the "socialism" word because they know NOTHING of World History and European History, the true one, not the one written by the leftists to be thought in the American public schools, that are sanctuaries for the brainwash of kids and young students, to make them the future enemies of their own Homeland. Fascism, Nazism and Communism are exactly the same: Genocidal, militaristic, suppressive, oppressive, submissive, repressive, absolute and totalitarian government control of people's life, Moderator cut: We don't discuss current politics or politicians in the History forum.

Last edited by mensaguy; Yesterday at 03:50 PM.. Reason: Removing political references.
 
Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM
 
17,666 posts, read 15,092,768 times
Reputation: 7897
OK, first thing first.

Regarding the EXACT Solzhenitsyn's quote about the repressed ( in Soviet Russia,) where the numbers came from, and source ( or rather a MAN behind these numbers.)

I finally found the article on a subject, had to run it through translator and to tweak it a bit. The author who wrote it is not the brightest bulb out there, but at least he did his homework and all the references to the original material are in place, so this should do.
( The article is rather long, so I'll divide it in two parts. )

So...


"Did Solzhenitsyn "lie" about 100 million of the repressed?"

Part I

"There is a widespread meme in neo-Stalinist circles, "Solzhenitsyn’s lie about 100 million repressed," gradually transforming into "100 million shot personally by Stalin."

Whenever they bring it up to me, I ask to quote Solzhenitsyn, where exactly he says anything like that. But they cannot find this quote. Or rather they can find it, but a completely different one -


“According to the estimates of statistics professor I. A. Kurganov, (who emigrated from Russia,) from 1917 to 1959, even without military casualties, but only from terrorist destruction, suppression, hunger, increased mortality in the camps and, including the deficit spanning from low birth rates, it costed us ... 66,7 million people (without this deficit of low birth rate - 55 million).
Sixty six million! Fifty five!

A friend or a stranger - who wouldn’t be stunned?

Of course, we can’t vouch for the numbers of Professor Kurganov, but we do not have official figures. As soon as the official ones are printed, the experts will be able to critically compare them. (Already now, several studies have appeared, using the hidden and sporadic Soviet statistics, but the terrible numbers of the perished come the same). ”

(A. Solzhenitsyn. Gulag Archipelago. Vol. 2; Part 3; Ch. 1)


As you can see, in this case Solzhenitsyn with his proviso "we do not vouch" refers to an article written by I.A. Kurganov "Three Figures", which conducted a statistical and demographic assessment of the consequences of the red catastrophe. At that, he talks about 55 or 65 million losses.

That is, the phrase "100 million repressed" in any case is a lie, regardless of the reliability or unreliability of the 65 million figure. It was made up by the enemies of Solzhenitsyn.
Where did this lie come from?
It came about by distorting the meaning of Solzhenitsyn’s speech on Spanish television back in 1976, when he said the following:
“From the end of the civil war, in fact, that’s when the regime’s war against its people began.
In the West, twelve years ago, a statistical study of Russian professor Kurganov was published. Of course, no one will ever publish official statistics on how many died in our country from the internal war of the regime against the people. But Professor Kurganov indirectly calculated that from 1917 to 1959 only from the internal war of the Soviet regime against its people, that is, from the destruction of it by hunger, collectivization, exile of peasants to their destruction, prisons, camps, simple executions, only from this, along with our civil war, 66 million of our people perished.
This figure is almost impossible to imagine. It’s unbelievable. Professor Kurganov gives a different figure: how much we lost in World War II. This figure is also impossible to imagine. This war was fought with no regard for divisions, corps, and millions of people. According to his calculations, in World War II we lost 44 million people from neglect, from sloppy waging! So, because of the socialist system, we have lost - 110 million people! It is amazing that at the end of the last century, Dostoevsky predicted that socialism would cost Russia one hundred million people. ”

So as you can see, “100 million” are not the words of Solzhenitsyn or Kurganov, but Dostoevsky.

“... no matter how you heal the world, you still won’t heal, and having cut off radically one hundred million heads and thereby making yourself ( lighter?), you can rather skip over the groove ...” (F.M. Dostoevsky. Collected Works, GIHL, Moscow, 1957. Volume 7. The novel "Demons", p. 421-424)

So the claims of the 100 million perished should be addressed to Fedor Mikhailovich ( Dostoyevsky.)
When it comes to Solzhenitsyn with his reference to Kurganov, 66 + 44, that is, it comes to 110 million. But not of the repressed, but general demographic losses of the people of Russia for 1917-1959 period.
Not “personally shot by Stalin,” as well as not shot at all, but a rough estimate of the general demographic losses.

1. Solzhenitsyn did not speak of the “100 million”;
2. Solzhenitsyn did not speak of “100 million repressed” or “100 million executed”;
3. Solzhenitsyn always referred to the source from where he took the figures of demographic losses he stated - the calculations of Professor Kurganov.
Now let’s estimate how reliable were Kurganov’s calculations published in the article “Three Figures” in the “New Russian Word” newspaper, back in 1964.
Perhaps they were so obviously absurd, that it would be embarrassing for a decent person like Solzhenitsyn to refer to them, even as approximate figures in the absence of any others?
So:
Kurganov I.A. Real last name – Koshkin. Born in 1895. An accountant by trade.
Born in 1895.,
***** ( I will skip Kuganov’s biography for the time being, as interesting as it sounds, but I might get back to it later, since it sort of... relevant.)

With other words - a convinced anti-communist, scientist, but not a demographer - just a professional accountant.

Kurganov calculated his numbers precisely by accounting method, not demographic methods.
He suggested that on the basis of the pre-revolutionary coefficient of natural growth, the population within the borders of the USSR for 1959 should have amounted to 319 million people. According to Soviet statistics, the Soviet population was 208 million people. Hence, Kurganov concluded that the population loss during the Soviet period was 110 million.

In fact, this figure should have been higher, since it is incorrect to calculate the growth based on the pre-revolutionary coefficient of natural growth. - Penicillin was discovered in the 1920s, the whole world was experiencing the first demographic transition, and child mortality was reduced.

At the same time, the second demographic transition with a drop in the birth rate has not yet begun. That is, the delta would be even higher.



Last edited by erasure; Yesterday at 10:17 PM..
 
Old Yesterday, 09:39 PM
 
17,666 posts, read 15,092,768 times
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Part II


The figure for the loss of the pre-war population coincides with the figure of 27 million used in textbooks within the last 30 years.. In 2015, Rosstat (“Statistics
of Russia” calculated these losses at 25.5 million. Losses due to unborn were calculated by Kurganov at 15.4 million.
Of the 110 million losses, 44 million mounds attributed to the Second World War. "During the Second World War, the USSR lost all its natural growth (15.4 million), and, in addition, 28.6 million or 14.5% of its pre-war amount."
The third figure of Kurganov - “66 million” was received by Kurganov purely accounting calculations. He took 110 million of his supposed total loss and took away 44 million of the military loss, which could be attributed to the incompetence of the Communists, but only indirectly.
“Thus, in non-war times, during the revolution and the revolutionary transformation of Russia, the people lost sixty-six million seven hundred thousand people. This is our third figure. ”
In this case, Kurganov did not give any miscalculation "from below." And, of course, to take this accounting exercise seriously, as demographic data, is impossible and, perhaps, Solzhenitsyn should not have mentioned it. But, Kurganov does not speak of “repressed” anywhere. He speaks of general demographic losses from the totality of causes.

Let's check this bookkeeping by counting from the bottom.


CIVIL WAR - 12.5 million

12.5 million population lost. (Erlichman V.V. Population Losses in the 20th Century: Reference Book - M .: Russian Panorama Publishing House, 2004)

Of these, 2.5 million killed combatants,

2 million killed as a result of terror. The ratio of victims of red and white terror 4: 1

2 million emigrants.

6 million dead from hunger and epidemics.
These figures may be disputed, but all the challenging should be addressed to Mr. Erlichmann then.


Famine - 13.5 million

1921-22. The Soviet Central Statistical Bureau determined the population deficit for the period from 1920 to 1922. equal to 5.1 million people.
1932-1933. A statement by the State Duma “In memory of the victims of the famine of the 30s in the USSR” names 7 million dead. Estimates of demographers from 2.5 to 8 million.

1946-47. Mortality in 1946 amounted to 800 thousand people. Demographics estimate hunger victims from 1 to 1.5 million.


Dekulakization - 0.7 million

4 million exiled. 600 thousand dead in places of exile (conservative estimate of V. N. Zemskov). 90 thousand dead in the process of transportation.

TERROR - 2.5 million people (minimum rating)

1930-1953 - arrests with charges of political articles - 3.8 million people, executions - 786 thousand people.


1930-1953 - 1.7 million people died in places of detention.

Maximum estimate of losses through repressions made by A.G. Vishnevsky reach 6 million people.
The total number of people that went through prisons, camps and special settlements is estimated at 25 million; in fact every fourth citizen of working age.
Therefore in total, the direct loss of the population from the external circumstances during Bolshevik period amounts to 33 million people, according to the main articles (and there are still the additional ones, such as losses during the Tambov uprising - 11 thousand people and other such non-mainstream articles)

So 33 million people. This is already half of the Kurganov’s number of demographic losses, the multiplication of which with unborn children and premature deaths passing through the camps will give a figure that is probably larger than Kurganov’s 66 million.

Thus, neither Kurganov nor Solzhenitsyn, who is quoting him, can be blamed for either lying about 110 or at least 66 million of “repressed” people, because they talk about all the demographic losses of the people as a result of the “war of the Soviet regime with their own people, ”and not just those “executed as a result of the death penalty.” Nor can they be blamed for what they call the deliberately absurd and unrealistic figure of such demographic losses.
Even without taking into account unborn births and premature mortality from natural causes, calculating the “bottom” on the basis of modern demographic data, we get a population loss of 33 million people, most of which falls on the civil war and three waves of famine in Soviet Russia.
Of course, this figure can be disputed and revised downward. In modern demography, one can observe a tendency to lowering of the losses from repressions in the works of V.N. Zemskov, and the tendency to overestimate them in the works of A.G. Vishnevsky. But we are talking specifically about the discussion and objections to opponents, about the justification of other figures, and not about the right to assert that Solzhenitsyn or Kurganov “lie”, calling such figures. Even if Kurganov, and, following him, with reservations, Solzhenitsyn, were mistaken, they had well-known reasons to be mistaken - recalculating their approximate numbers to modern data gives very similar values.

There is no reason to talk about “Solzhenitsyn’s lies.” But you can call people who ascribe to him the words about "100 million repressed” the liars."


So I hope THIS takes mystery out of Solzhenitsyn's quote and sheds some light on TRUE numbers, whence they came, and what they mean exactly.

Last edited by erasure; Yesterday at 10:19 PM..
 
Old Yesterday, 10:23 PM
 
581 posts, read 556,293 times
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Default Stalin

More people were murdered under Stalin than by Hitler. A lot more.
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