Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I am reading The last days of hitler, written by an English historian who researched and wrote the book right after the war ended. It reinvigorated my interest in WW2, and I ended up watching many documentaries.
There seems to be a consensus among many people that Josef Stalin was a far worse person and a tyrant than Adolf Hitler. Do you agree?
Personally speaking, whilst Stalin was a sociopath who sacrificed his troops unnecessarily and even killed many of his own people, I don't see how he was worse than Hitler. If we use this hypothesis of killing millions of his own people then shoudnt China's Mao also be included?
Hitler "ruled" for barely 12 years and he did immense damage. Stalin ruled for much longer. I can't imagine if Hitler won the war and ruled for as long as Stalin did, what he'd have done, or how many millions more would have perished. Hitler was far worse imo.
Hitler killed 6 million Jews
Stalin killed about 50 million Eastern Europeans (Poles, Cheks, Gypsy, Jews, Russians, etc.)
Mao killed about 100 million Orientals
Hitler killed 6 million Jews
Stalin killed about 50 million Eastern Europeans (Poles, Cheks, Gypsy, Jews, Russians, etc.)
Mao killed about 100 million Orientals
Hitler was the minor leagues...
More nonsense.
Proofs please.
When it comes to Hitler ( and WWII) it's not just "6 million Jews" ( that's the number of Holocaust only,) - but these are the figures for the WWII, unleashed by Hitler's Germany.
"Estimates for the total number of casualties in the war vary, because many deaths went unrecorded.[335] Most suggest that some 60 million people died in the war, including about 20 million military personnel and 40 million civilians.[336][337][338] Many of the civilians died because of deliberate genocide, massacres, mass bombings, disease, and starvation.[citation needed] The Soviet Union alone lost around 27 million people during the war,[339] including 8.7 million military and 19 million civilian deaths.[340] A quarter of the people in the Soviet Union were wounded or killed.[341] Germany sustained 5.3 million military losses, mostly on the Eastern Front and during the final battles in Germany.[342]"
Stalin’s extremely brutal 30-year rule as absolute ruler of the Soviet Union featured so many atrocities, including purges, expulsions, forced displacements, imprisonment in labor camps, manufactured famines, torture and good old-fashioned acts of mass murder and massacres (not to mention World War II) that the complete toll of bloodshed will likely never be known.
An amoral psychopath and paranoid with a gangster’s mentality, Stalin eliminated anyone and everyone who was a threat to his power – including (and especially) former allies. He had absolutely no regard for the sanctity of human life.
But how many people is he responsible for killing?
In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.
''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time.
Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.
Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess.
Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.
Stalin’s extremely brutal 30-year rule as absolute ruler of the Soviet Union featured so many atrocities, including purges, expulsions, forced displacements, imprisonment in labor camps, manufactured famines, torture and good old-fashioned acts of mass murder and massacres (not to mention World War II) that the complete toll of bloodshed will likely never be known.
An amoral psychopath and paranoid with a gangster’s mentality, Stalin eliminated anyone and everyone who was a threat to his power – including (and especially) former allies. He had absolutely no regard for the sanctity of human life.
But how many people is he responsible for killing?
In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.
''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time.
Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.
Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess.
Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.
The problem is that 60 million is way too big of a number, no matter how you look at it. That would mean that the USSR had lost a third of it's population. How would the country recover from that?
An upper limit of 20 million, which is still a colossal figure, seems more than reasonable.
If you're talking about Mao's China, then 60 million is a fair assessment. In fact, it could be even higher. China had a population of around 500 million in 1949 when he came to power.
Stalin’s extremely brutal 30-year rule as absolute ruler of the Soviet Union featured so many atrocities, including purges, expulsions, forced displacements, imprisonment in labor camps, manufactured famines, torture and good old-fashioned acts of mass murder and massacres (not to mention World War II) that the complete toll of bloodshed will likely never be known.
An amoral psychopath and paranoid with a gangster’s mentality, Stalin eliminated anyone and everyone who was a threat to his power – including (and especially) former allies. He had absolutely no regard for the sanctity of human life.
But how many people is he responsible for killing?
In February 1989, two years before the fall of the Soviet Union, a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives (on top of the estimated 20 million Soviet troops and civilians who perished in the Second World War), for a total tally of 40 million.
''It's important that they published it, although the numbers themselves are horrible,'' Medvedev told the New York Times at the time.
Medevedev's grim bookkeeping included the following tragic episodes: 1 million imprisoned or exiled between 1927 to 1929; 9 to 11 million peasants forced off their lands and another 2 to 3 million peasants arrested or exiled in the mass collectivization program; 6 to 7 million killed by an artificial famine in 1932-1934; 1 million exiled from Moscow and Leningrad in 1935; 1 million executed during the ''Great Terror'' of 1937-1938; 4 to 6 million dispatched to forced labor camps; 10 to 12 million people forcibly relocated during World War II; and at least 1 million arrested for various “political crimes” from 1946 to 1953.
Although not everyone who was swept up in the aforementioned events died from unnatural causes, Medvedev’s 20 million non-combatant deaths estimate is likely a conservative guess.
Indeed, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the literary giant who wrote harrowingly about the Soviet gulag system, claimed the true number of Stalin’s victims might have been as high as 60 million.
Do you understand that Medvedev ( and other historians that came up with different numbers) are ONLY GUESSING. These are only their ESTIMATES, proved by nothing whatsoever.
The article you gave the link to, is just another piece of propaganda.
In this article they give the estimate of 20 million people killed by Stalin, and it was back in 1989 - i.e. when Gorbachev LOVED to denounce Stalin ( it was all the rage, and Gorbachev had his own reasons, his own agenda for that.)
But then they opened the archives after the fall of the Soviet Union, already in the 90ies, and it turned out to be, that the numbers of politically-repressed people ( executed, exiled, imprisoned) from 1921 to 1953 were much, much lower. ( I am sorry I can't give you a version in English, where it's all broken down, because they've restricted access to this information. It was out in the open earlier.
So that's that.
When it comes specifically to Solzhenitzin though, no matter how many times you'll repeat about his greatness, you need to realize, that when he stayed in the camp system, there was NO WAY he could know the TRUE numbers of the repressed. So yet again - he could only GUESS.
But I tell you what, I finally found the source of it all, I found his EXACT QUOTE from the book, and now I know exactly where he got his estimate number from, and why.
So now it's YOUR TURN to find Solzhenitzin's exact quote of the numbers in "Archipelago," and tell me what it is all about, so we wouldn't be playing the hear-say game any longer.
The problem is that 60 million is way too big of a number, no matter how you look at it. That would mean that the USSR had lost a third of it's population. How would the country recover from that?
An upper limit of 20 million, which is still a colossal figure, seems more than reasonable.
If you're talking about Mao's China, then 60 million is a fair assessment. In fact, it could be even higher. China had a population of around 500 million in 1949 when he came to power.
Oh this propaganda nonsense of "50millionkilledbystalin" is never-ending.
Just because it "sounds good" I guess.
But I am not complaining, because today I actually learned something new, something that kinda surprised me to tell you the truth.
Stalin and Mao made Hitler look like an amateur. Stalin is at around 20 Million deaths, Mao at 50M and Hitler at 6M. Sick and cruel.
^ this is basically how I was gonna answer the thread.. If we're using straight body count as the deciding factor, Stalin is much worse. But..
They both sucked.
"How long will you keep killing people?" asked Lady Astor of Stalin in 1931.
Replied Stalin, "the process would continue as long as was necessary" to establish a communist society.
Speaking this week at a conference organized by the conservative American Enterprise Institute, Rep. Michael McCaul, a Republican and the House Homeland Security Committee chairman, said that “Stalin killed more people in Ukraine than Hitler killed Jews in World War II. They basically worked them to death for the bread and the food that they made in Ukraine.”
Known as the Holodomor, the massive famine in 1932-33 was brought on by Stalinist collectivization policies. During the famine, Moscow insisted on increasing production quotas and confiscating seed grain while peasants starved.
While it affected citizens across the the Soviet Union, Ukraine was hit especially hard. Millions starved to death, though the exact tally of victims has been a matter of dispute. Some scholars, such as Ukrainian-Canadian historian John-Paul Himka, have placed the number at around 4 million, while Ukrainian nationalists claim more than twice as many.
Probably 61,911,000 people, 54,769,000 of them citizens, have been murdered by the Communist Party--the government--of the Soviet Union. This is about 178 people for each letter, comma, period, digit, and other characters in this book.
Old and young, healthy and sick, men and women, and even infants and infirm, were killed in cold-blood. They were not combatants in civil war or rebellions, they were not criminals. Indeed, nearly all were guilty of ... nothing.
Some were from the wrong class--bourgeoisie, land owners, aristocrats, kulaks. Some were from the wrong nation or race-- Ukrainians, Black Sea Greeks, Kalmyks, Volga Germans. Some were from the wrong political faction--Trotskyites, Mensheviks, Social Revolutionaries. Or some were just their sons and daughters, wives and husbands, or mothers and fathers. And some were those occupied by the Red Army--Balts, Germans, Poles, Hungarians, Rumanians. Then some were simply in the way of social progress, like the mass of peasants or religious believers. Or some were eliminated because of their potential opposition, such as writers, teachers, churchmen; or the military high command; or even high and low Communist Party members themselves.
In fact, we have witnessed in the Soviet Union a true egalitarian social cleansing and flushing: no group or class escaped, for everyone and anyone could have had counter-revolutionary ancestors, class lineage, counter-revolutionary ideas or thought, or be susceptible to them. And thus, almost anyone was arrested, interrogated, tortured, and after a forced confession of a plot to blow up the Kremlin, or some such, shot or sentenced to the dry guillotine--slow death by exposure, malnutrition, and overwork in a forced labor camp.
Part of this mass killing was genocide, as in the wholesale murder of hundreds of thousands of Don Cossacks in 1919,1 the intentional starving of about 5,000,000 Ukrainian peasants to death in 1932-33,2 or the deportation to mass death of 50,000 to 60,000 Estonians in 1949.3 Part was mass murder, as of the wholesale extermination of perhaps 6,500,000 "kulaks" (in effect, the better off peasants and those resisting collectivization) from 1930 to 1937,4 the execution of perhaps a million Party members in the Great Terror of 1937-38,5 and the massacre of all Trotskyites in the forced labor camps.6
And part of the killing was so random and idiosyncratic that journalists and social scientists have no concept for it, as in hundreds of thousands of people being executed according to preset, government, quotas. Says Vladimir Petrov (who in 1954 defected while a spy-chief in Australia and whose credibility and subsequent revelations were verified by a Royal--Australian-- Commission on Espionage7) about his work during the years 1936 to 1938:
It is impossible to fix in mind and digest this democide. Focusing on the most probable estimate of 61,911,000 murdered, as shown in Table 1.2 it is over four times the battle dead (15,000,000) for all nations in the Second World War.12 Indeed, it exceeds the total deaths (35,700,000) from all this century's international, civil, guerrilla, and liberation wars, including the Russian Civil War itself.13 Many other comparisons are given in Table 1.2 and Figure 1.5, the purpose of which is to communicate some feel for what the Soviet democide means in sheer numbers.
^
I see..
More propaganda, more disinformation. *Yawn.*
As usual "many people," many millions" "it's estimated," and no proofs - none whatsoever. While in case of Hitler 60 million is pretty much on a spot ( not 6 million as some try to claim.)
But Hitler of course is a "minor league" - yeah right. Mhm.)
By the way, when you post all that stuff, why can't you at least check on simple things, so that the lies wouldn't be at least so blatant?
I mean look at your last link, with a logo of falsified info -
"How long will you keep killing people" - asked Lady Astor of Stalin in 1931.
Replied Stalin, "the process would continue as long as it was necessary to establish a communist society."
Now let's check what he REALLY replied, shall we? ( Not to mention the soft spot of the aforementioned lady for Hitler - let's hear it as well.)
But that's beside the point.
You still didn't answer a simple question - where did Solzhenitsyn get HIS estimate from in "Archipelago", did you?
Yet you pushed this figure along with the rest of propaganda.
In sum, the Soviets have committed a democide of 61,911,000 people, 7,142,000 of them foreigners. This staggering total is beyond belief. But, as shown in Figure 1.1, it is only the prudent, most probable tally, in a range from an highly unlikely, low figure of 28,326,000 (4,263,000 foreigners); and an equally unlikely high of 126,891,000 (including 12,134,000 foreigners). This is a range of uncertainty in our democide estimates--an error range--of 97,808,000 human beings.
it doesn't matter the source, the facts or who provides it. you already have been indoctrinated to believe the propaganda and nothing less than stacking the bones in your front yard could even make a difference...and I'm sure you would dismiss that too...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
