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Ok, so say you're a thug and you have some otherwise worthless friends. However, if you pal up, you can be a bullying force. Marx isn't an evil guy, but his writings are so easily prone to misinterpretation that any group of thugs that wants to steal whatever they want will do so "for the people". For the people as represented by them.
Now, these thugs can't win in a fair fight. The Soviet Union was created on the winds of defeat in WWI. What's a loss to the nation (i.e. much of Poland) is still a net gain to a bunch of thugs that prey on the inaction and confusion of the populace. Loyalty to party is the only guiding principle. It rose because the thieves of the world got bolder.
Look at China. China's fighting the Japanese and creeping up behind aren't good patriots fighting for their country, but profiteers that are ready to pounce on the country's weakness after a decade of fighting.
Even look at how the Nazis rose to power. The Nazi's never won the popular vote, but the other main party was for Soviet style government which wasn't wanted either.
Like snake oil salespeople that sold fake medicine in that same time, communism came to power because they were very organized amongst themselves and knew that what they were doing was a heist that made Oceans 11 seem like child's play. The rest is just propaganda to keep everyone else from moving to intercept....until it's too late.
Why is socialism suddenly back for this election? Easy. Trump is a soft target. The population is young. It's prime breeding grounds for socialists to make their move. Where the hell were these guys in the latter half of the 20th century? Why, even now, do they not run under their own party but instead infect the Democrats.
These people are thieves. They rose to power when they did because it was easier to steal....and they needed to wait for a new big generation before they could even think to use the same old tricks again. Don't be fooled.
Keep in mind that the first "real" communist country was the Soviet Union, built out of a number of smaller "countries", the largest of which was Russia. Czarist Russia was a horrifically bad place, especially for the serfs, who were essentially tried to the land they lived on, and subject to the whims of the land owners. Anything that ended that situation looked attractive. Much the same situation existed in China.
Interesting, but in Russia the aftermath of the fall of the Tzar was a bit more complicated. There were competing political factions and Lenin's Bolsheviks were in the mix. Lenin himself was hiding in Norway. One group of ex-military officers wanted a constitutional government based on the founding documents of the USA. In all this turmoil Lenin sent a trusted friend (a lawyer) to Russia and his assignment was to try and gain the upper hand.
He gave stump speeches and promised “Bread, Land, and Peace” for those who supported the Bolsheviks. That message resonated, and the rest is history. Lenin returned and immediately proceeded to destroy any remaining opposition parties. In the coming decades ~ 20 million Russian peasants perished from starvation.
During the 19th and 20th century why was communism so accepted in certain countries/regions even despite how inherently evil it was? The USSR was undeniably a very evil regime.
I mean, can anyone name one country at all that was communist and ruled by good people?
If it worked as well in practice as it appears conceptually in theory there would be many more converts. It was a reactive idea going against the capitalistic abuses of the day. It was mostly in competition with rabid capitalism (and some archaic monarchies), religious absolutism, and anarchism in the 19th century. It looked pretty good by comparison if you are part of the downtrodden poor and working class.
Like in the reformation era, there was something of a counter movement in some ways. The labor movement and progressives brought reforms that tended to diminish the abuses and placate the disaffected going into the 20th century. WW-I was a setback because of the massive war dead for no apparent reason and the massive military industrialization efforts. Russia was a special case with abuses and poverty beyond even the worst cases in western Europe and Americas -- and no effective attempts to reform. With the Bolsheviks in power, the cat was out of the bag and some people overlooked the excesses and bloodshed and considered following suit. The abusive forces were so entrenched in Russia that it seemed like it was always going to be a bloody struggle.
The depression had a positive impact on the perception of some because of economic excesses in the 1920s. Some of the enthusiasm was sidetracked by a positive focus on the advances in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. It is sometimes surprising how popular Nazi Germany was prior to WW-II. FDR's reforms and the New Deal introduced some changes that also dampened any communist enthusiasm. The war and its aftermath popped the bubble on both fronts: Germany and the Soviets. Nazi Germany was revealed for what it was and the Soviets, who lost millions of soldiers and civilians, blatantly occupied and expanded control into western Europe.
These days, communism is largely dead but the abuses of capitalism continue. There has been a die-off of some of the old safeguards that started 100 years ago. Labor unions are but a shadow of their former self. Environmental protections are undermined by corporate avarice. The Great Recession, various corporate scandals (remember Enron?), bank bailouts, the burden of education loans, and blatant greed by the very rich and CEOs is igniting a new interest in left-wing solutions. These are nowhere close to communism or even full scale socialism.
SOCIALISM - A political and economic theory advocating collective ownership of the means of production and control of distribution. It is based upon the belief that all, while contributing to the good of the community, are equally entitled to the care and protection which the community can provide.
- - - Webster's dictionary
Socialism and communism = COLLECTIVE ownership; Abolition of private property owned by individuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition
But the definition of socialism that you state doesn't say anything about abolishing private ownership of other things, only the means of production/distribution. Which would be companies, not property.
I know not what universe you come from, but in ours, the means of production are: labor, land, resources, tools, etc., and collective control over the distribution of that production is "NOT" a reference to companies (i.e. corporations - so called 'capitalists'), but a reference to abolishing private ownership.
Try being a farmer in a socialist paradise, while claiming to OWN the land, to OWN your labor, and the FRUITS of that labor. Try to decide which crops should be planted and so forth. Then try and sell your harvest on the side of the road, taking all the PROFIT for yourself. Methinks you will soon learn that COLLECTIVE OWNERSHIP is exactly that - you and yours being OWNED by the benevolent totalitarian police state that enforces collectivism.
(You didn't think they'd say "pretty please with sugar on top" when they come for your surplus or to punish your lack of socialist virtue.)
The ultimate failure of all collectivism is that it is human nature to seek to become a recipient and abhor being a donor. When the socialist system rewards 'takers' and penalizes 'makers' the society transforms into an ever declining socialist 'paradise' with less and less to be 'equally shared' as no one will hustle to make more surplus that will only be confiscated from them.
Keep in mind that the first "real" communist country was the Soviet Union, built out of a number of smaller "countries", the largest of which was Russia. Czarist Russia was a horrifically bad place, especially for the serfs, who were essentially tried to the land they lived on, and subject to the whims of the land owners. Anything that ended that situation looked attractive. Much the same situation existed in China.
Actually, no so-called 'communist' country has admitted to achieving true communism. At best, all they claim is having achieved socialism.
To-ma-to , tom ah toh, not much difference.
ONE interesting side effect - no matter how wealthy or poor a socialist country is - it has a giant reduction in birthrate. It would appear that collectivism = genocide.
USSR / Russia as well as most of socialist Europe have huge declines in birthrates, creating a disaster for the rising population of recipients (retirees).
Even Cuba, in the Caribbean, showed a marked drop following the 1960s revolution, while its other tropical neighbors kept cranking out babies.
Actually, no so-called 'communist' country has admitted to achieving true communism. At best, all they claim is having achieved socialism.
To-ma-to , tom ah toh, not much difference.
ONE interesting side effect - no matter how wealthy or poor a socialist country is - it has a giant reduction in birthrate. It would appear that collectivism = genocide. USSR / Russia as well as most of socialist Europe have huge declines in birthrates, creating a disaster for the rising population of recipients (retirees).
Even Cuba, in the Caribbean, showed a marked drop following the 1960s revolution, while its other tropical neighbors kept cranking out babies.
USSR/Russia had "declines in births" because of wars and famines.
Once that was over with, the birth rate was steady.
It drastically plummeted only when they've switched to capitalism and abolished their social security net.
So check your facts.
(Take note; other former Socialist countries in Eastern Europe are simply dying out under capitalism, which was not a case under socialism.)
During the 19th and 20th century why was communism so accepted in certain countries/regions even despite how inherently evil it was? The USSR was undeniably a very evil regime.
I mean, can anyone name one country at all that was communist and ruled by good people?
How do you know? I lived there for 38 years, MOF, I come from family of the so called repressed people. Born in Siberia.
I saw nothing evil there. Normal life, happy people. Not everyone had a car and air conditioner, life was simple, basic, but it was fun and lots of good memories.
These days, communism is largely dead but the abuses of capitalism continue. There has been a die-off of some of the old safeguards that started 100 years ago. Labor unions are but a shadow of their former self. Environmental protections are undermined by corporate avarice. The Great Recession, various corporate scandals (remember Enron?), bank bailouts, the burden of education loans, and blatant greed by the very rich and CEOs is igniting a new interest in left-wing solutions. These are nowhere close to communism or even full scale socialism.
See, this is the story. Once upon a time the Communists brought good things to the country.....no, no they did not.
Do you remember the great environmental protections of the 1920s? I assure you they are much better and stronger now in unpure capitalist America than they are in Communist China. Remember, the free world develops the new medical advances and the communists stumble behind attempting to copy them. As for Corporate scandals like Enron in the energy sector....how about that good old fashioned kindred spirit shown in Chernobyl? Or Mao starving off 10s of millions.
The world is not perfect. Capitalism is harder to control. The next advance may be a breakthrough in medicine, or it might be really neat cat videos I can get on a mobile phone, but so long as you are free to direct and control your own time and efforts, you can take care of the problems that affect you most. Somehow that silly cat video gives someone an idea to launch Ted talks, and someone gets the idea of doing talks via Skype and someone gets the idea of saving certain presentation talks and then distributing it in the same channel as cat videos and suddenly the masses can go take a look.
It's not a linear path, but it does work.
Communists....your problems don't exist, only theirs. Think of the mindset of leaders that would carry out mass forced abortions like in China. In Communist Soviet Union....everyone had jobs. They had to. Everyone had money....there just wasn't stuff in the stores to buy.
Communists can't tell the truth even to themselves. It's a ponzi scheme from the word go. A talented communist simply slows the burn rate of other people's wealth slower than a bad one. A worker is much safer here in Capitalistic USA than in Russia...or China....or Venezuela. The environment is cleaner. The people more educated. There is more equality of opportunity. You have more opportunities here. It might not be for the right reasons, but somehow a rising tide seems to float more boats than it does in communist countries.
Capitalist USA is not PERFECT. However the utter collapse of the Soviet economy in the early 90s surely dwarfs the Great Recession of 2008. Yet, to hear a communist talk about communism, they take the high road on all emotive issues. There's no racism....bs. Tell that to millions of Russian Jews or Chinese Muslims.
This propaganda exists to feed the masses living in those countries. Here, it's easy enough to disprove that if you take a look. It's ridiculous. Additionally, we can look at foreign press if we think something is propaganda.
Moderator cut: Read the forum rules. Current politicians are never OK in History forum discussions.
Last edited by mensaguy; 12-21-2019 at 06:19 AM..
Reason: Somebody didn't read the forum rules.
During the 19th and 20th century why was communism so accepted in certain countries/regions even despite how inherently evil it was? The USSR was undeniably a very evil regime.
I mean, can anyone name one country at all that was communist and ruled by good people?
It sounds good, even Utopian.
It's academically pleasing.
Belief in it assuages rich person's guilt.
And almost anything Utopian proves disastrous in practice.
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