U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-21-2020, 10:12 AM
 
10,106 posts, read 7,768,492 times
Reputation: 10459

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
Open US borders would not have easily avoided the Holocaust, though it would have lessened the number of overall victims.
I'm not sure what you mean by "open borders", as that has nothing to do with immigration or refugee policy. No one back then, or now, is advocating for "open borders". Obviously the Jewish refugees couldn't just enter the country absent paperwork.

And yes, if we didn't have a hardcore nativist element in the 1930's, we could have easily avoided the Holocaust.

And putting aside the human aspect, we would be a richer, stronger country today. It would have also saved American inner cities in the postwar era since the Jewish refugees would have entered at the exact same time that U.S. Jews were starting to move to the suburbs. Many of the social problems in urban America in the 1960's and 70's would have likely been avoided. And the U.S. would have gained millions of hardworking people for the war effort and to further feed the postwar boom.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-21-2020, 10:48 AM
 
11,888 posts, read 16,941,329 times
Reputation: 13437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
That presuppose that the resistance would take direct orders from the British instead of working on their own national goals. The few agents and resistance groups were probably harder to find than replacement aircrews who didn't have the choice of chosing their own targets



As I said, AK was run by Brits. Would have taken one radio from HQ for action. Not a single partisan operation ever existed independently. Not for any meaningful time, at least.



Disposable crew? How insightful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 10:57 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
5,892 posts, read 3,844,050 times
Reputation: 9887
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
P-38s didn't do well in ETO. See https://www.historynet.com/p-38-flunked-europe.htm for a comprehensive discussion of the issues.
The USAAF by 1944 used a shuttle base in Poltava Ukraine with the permission of the Soviet Union for bombing missions so Poland would have been within range of our heavy bombers.

As far as the P38 it did have long range capability as indicated by its mission history in the Pacific. However it was never as capable as the P 51 was in Europe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 11:38 AM
 
9,822 posts, read 9,793,348 times
Reputation: 30951
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Of course we should have done more.

But actually the Holocaust could have easily been avoided. The U.S. blocked Jewish refugees from entering despite dramatic appeals from a number of U.S. Reps and Jewish organizations. The U.S. was still stuck in its interwar nativist phase (recently revived, unfortunately).

It's not like the Holocaust was a surprise to anyone. There were alarm bells going off a decade earlier. People know what was happening, but they didn't care. Many Americans were openly hostile to swarthy immigrants who spoke funny languages, had weird customs, and ate strange food. And they weren't even Christian! The nativists in Congress blocked immigration reform and emergency refugee influx. Many of the arguments used against refugees and immigrants are the exact same we hear today.
In fairness, what motivated much of the refusal to take in immigrants/refugees was the economic situation in the USA that had resulted from the Great Depression. Unemployment was still around 10% as late as 1940. In fact, at the height of the Depression it was between 20% to 25% of the labor force. Congressmen and officials in the executive department of government saw immigrants as likely taking scarce jobs away from American citizens. There was also a belief that Europeans were responsible for their own sad state of affairs. Many did not distinguish between different groups. The idea was that Europeans should stay in their own countries and "work out" their own problems.

If this sounds harsh, its what many believe today about immigration from Latin America. I hear over and over again that these people ought to be able to weed out corruption, eliminate drug dealing and gangs, and create jobs on their own.

Plus, hindsight is 20/20. Hitler obviously meant bad things for the Jews, but there were no gas chambers in 1940 or 1941. That all came later.

Ultimately, we would learn it was a tragic mistake not to admit more Jewish refugees to our country. It was more difficult to see it at the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Ohio
21,172 posts, read 14,979,915 times
Reputation: 17548
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
US B-29s were not assigned to the ETO during WWII.
You missed the point entirely.

Doesn't matter if it was B-29s, B-17 Flying Fortresses, B-24 Liberators or B-25 Mitchells, the end result is the same, namely bombers dumping tons of explosive ordnance on a small area.

I suppose you would have activated your prayer capsule to avoid injury from concussion or shrapnel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I wonder of fighter escort range would be a factor as well. From England to Poland has to be about 2,000 mile round trip.
Why would you do that?

Italy surrendered September 1943.

Rome to Auschwitz is less than 700 miles and well within the combat radius of both the B-24 Liberator and B-25 Mitchell (and both are in excess of 1,000 miles at 1,700 and 1,400 respectively). Rome to Krakow is about 950 miles.

Using bases near Firenze and Vicenza would reduce the distance. Flying from Italy you can fly around Germany.

You could also launch simultaneous attacks. Have bombers from Britain attack targets in Germany, while bombers from Italy skirt the perimeter and attack targets in Poland. The Luftwaffe would be tied up with the bombers from Britain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 01:35 PM
 
10,106 posts, read 7,768,492 times
Reputation: 10459
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
In fairness, what motivated much of the refusal to take in immigrants/refugees was the economic situation in the USA that had resulted from the Great Depression. Unemployment was still around 10% as late as 1940. In fact, at the height of the Depression it was between 20% to 25% of the labor force. Congressmen and officials in the executive department of government saw immigrants as likely taking scarce jobs away from American citizens.
I would argue that that would be the ideal time to take a larger wave of immigrants. Immigrants, overall, are hugely entrepreneurial job creators. And early 20th century Jewish Europeans were particularly entrepreneurial. They may have ameliorated the worst effects of the Great Depression. The few Jewish refugees that made it to the U.S. created an incredible amount of postwar prosperity, from Einstein to Kissinger.

But yes, no doubt that was one of the arguments used back then, and today. People view economics in a zero sum paradigm, and don't get that newcomers aren't necessarily competing for the same jobs, they're frequently creating new ones from scratch.

And, to be fair, it wasn't just the U.S. Many other countries were less than welcome to Jewish refugees. But the U.S. had, by far, the world's largest Jewish population at the time, so would have been the natural destination. Postwar America would have been a very different place, probably without the same degree of urban white flight, probably with even greater technological advantages over the Soviets, and with greater advances in many fields, given European Jews were fantastically accomplished. Maybe the Cold War would have been shorter and less painful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 01:43 PM
 
294 posts, read 132,658 times
Reputation: 476
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pruzhany View Post
Six million Jews died in the Holocaust. Five million others perished under the Nazi regime. When facing such an abhorrent figure historians have long argued– could we have done more? Should we have done more?


https://www.historynet.com/should-th...al-history.htm
I happened to be Jewish. Both parents were and my
mother's ancestry goes back to the sephardic tribe.

What's consistently missing in posts is mentioning all the others who were killed in concentration and death camps and elsewhere. Here's a link to the possible number. Don't know the accuracy but it rings close enough. When we went to the Holocaust Museum in DC when they first opened up, I learned homosexuals remained persecuted and held captive until @1966 (because that information wasn't buried or hidden). https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...zi-persecution

Should Auschwitz have been exterminated? NO. While many are trying to say the holocaust never happened, does leaving such a horrid memory change anyones' mind? Probably not but horrors of history should not be annihilated. Imagine if any or all of the trumps are erased from history this fascist-like march will keep happening. Let Auschwitz live on to tell its terrors to anyone who'll listen. If it's deleted, it's like it didn't happen. If it didn't, happen, it'll happen again (like now with so many in denial about it). "When will they ever learn? When will they ever learn..."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Elysium
7,279 posts, read 4,060,112 times
Reputation: 5195
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
As I said, AK was run by Brits. Would have taken one radio from HQ for action. Not a single partisan operation ever existed independently. Not for any meaningful time, at least.



Disposable crew? How insightful.
Yes disposable, it was the reason USAAF bomber crews had a mission limit. It was like social security was set up to start paying out when most people died.

With so much fire from AAA and fighters going their way some were not coming home to fly another mission and General Arnold had to have replacements heading towards Europe and Japan
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 03:51 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,142 posts, read 1,833,399 times
Reputation: 3968
Default The kids are alright

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
You missed the point entirely.

Doesn't matter if it was B-29s, B-17 Flying Fortresses, B-24 Liberators or B-25 Mitchells, the end result is the same, namely bombers dumping tons of explosive ordnance on a small area.

I suppose you would have activated your prayer capsule to avoid injury from concussion or shrapnel.

...
No worries, then.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-21-2020, 05:09 PM
 
3,224 posts, read 1,239,496 times
Reputation: 2249
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOLA101 View Post
Of course we should have done more.

But actually the Holocaust could have easily been avoided. The U.S. blocked Jewish refugees from entering despite dramatic appeals from a number of U.S. Reps and Jewish organizations. The U.S. was still stuck in its interwar nativist phase (recently revived, unfortunately).

It's not like the Holocaust was a surprise to anyone. There were alarm bells going off a decade earlier. People know what was happening, but they didn't care. Many Americans were openly hostile to swarthy immigrants who spoke funny languages, had weird customs, and ate strange food. And they weren't even Christian! The nativists in Congress blocked immigration reform and emergency refugee influx. Many of the arguments used against refugees and immigrants are the exact same we hear today.
The Holocaust was a disaster waiting to happen. Jews have been persecuted since Roman times. Throughout Europe, there has always been a Jewish phobia. Hitler may have taken it to the nest level, but the writing was on the wall a long time ago. Tzarist Russia was quite harsh towards Jews. The Protocols of The Elders of Zion was first published there, and was even used to blame them for Russia’s 1905 revolution along with its defeat in the Russo-Japanese war. That’s just one example, there are plenty of others.

The US itself had some staunch anti-semites like Henry Ford, who openly published those texts in the newspaper that he owned.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top