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Old 03-07-2020, 03:05 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
17,079 posts, read 6,324,822 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
At least in the US, many people do not even know England had a civil war during the early colonial period. And it was much more consequential than the American revolution or the American civil war, which were largely conflicts between regional elites.

The English civil war was momentous because the English king was executed, 150 years before the French king. The Roundheads were directly challenging the idea of a king's divine right, which was part of the religious ferment at the time. The idea was so strongly ingrained that Cromwell, who had had a religious conversion before the war, was compelled to sign the order of execution himself because others were afraid to.

The French revolution is more notable because it spilled out across Europe as France was on the continent, but the English civil war was the first to see a monarch executed by commoners. It did not spill out because England was on an island.

The Dutch revolt had preceded the English civil war, as had the German Thirty Years War. All were aftershocks from the Reformation. Most American students of history don't know of those wars as well, despite the fact that they are the lineal forebears of the American revolution. Instead they think the tea partiers in Boston got the whole ball rolling, when in fact there had been two centuries of revolt and revolution already.
Part of the reason it is over looked is because Cromwell was not a man of the people, indeed he slaughtered a lot of people and is still hated in Ireland and other areas.

It also should be noted that Cromwell was basically a protestant puritan who hated Catholics and this was not all about some great peoples revolution, indeed many ordinary people fought on the side of the King (Cavaliers) and against Cromwell (Roundheads) and his Parliamentarians, and Cromwell imposed his religouis beliefs on his victory, making life fairly miserable and pointless enjoyment was frowned upon.

Life in England under Oliver Cromwell - History Learning Site

Culture - When Christmas carols were banned - BBC

Parliament itself was full of wealthy land owners who expoited the poor, and only the very land owners wealthy had the vote, so this was not really a massive blow for the working people. It also so a high percentage pof the popul;ation killed, higher than WW1 or WW2.

The events after the English Civil War, such as the Restoration, which returned a moarch to the throne albeit with less power now that Parliament was in charge and then the Glorious Revolution when the catholic monarch James II was conspired against by protestants and the protestant William of Orange was helped to gain power. Therese events also play a part in how this period of history is remembered and James II was subsequently the last Roman Catholic Monarch.

The English Civil War was far more to do with one elite and religion against another, rather than a great peoples revolution that saw the aristorcray overthrown and excuted as in France or later in Russia.

The Restoration - Wikipedia

Glorious Revolution - Wikipedia


Last edited by Brave New World; 03-07-2020 at 03:31 AM..
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:43 AM
 
12,997 posts, read 10,246,983 times
Reputation: 24082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cida View Post
Basically, Americans don't care much about anything except America.
Pretty much describes me right here. But history isn't where my passion lies. I've learned more reading historical fiction than anything I learned in school. (No fault of the school I'm sure.)
Generally American History and Social Studies were required courses. I don't think World History was required. Even if it was, that's a lot of info subject to the whim of the author. "Glossed over"? Touched briefly upon? Omitted?

I'm happy to see our British friend knows his/ her stuff!
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Old 03-07-2020, 09:07 AM
 
10,709 posts, read 19,167,133 times
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Most Americans know very little about their own history, let alone the history of other countries. The ECW is not of any importance to Americans.
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Old 03-07-2020, 11:36 AM
 
14,103 posts, read 4,195,591 times
Reputation: 8426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
At least in the US, many people do not even know England had a civil war during the early colonial period. And it was much more consequential than the American revolution or the American civil war, which were largely conflicts between regional elites.

The English civil war was momentous because the English king was executed, 150 years before the French king. The Roundheads were directly challenging the idea of a king's divine right, which was part of the religious ferment at the time. The idea was so strongly ingrained that Cromwell, who had had a religious conversion before the war, was compelled to sign the order of execution himself because others were afraid to.

The French revolution is more notable because it spilled out across Europe as France was on the continent, but the English civil war was the first to see a monarch executed by commoners. It did not spill out because England was on an island.

The Dutch revolt had preceded the English civil war, as had the German Thirty Years War. All were aftershocks from the Reformation. Most American students of history don't know of those wars as well, despite the fact that they are the lineal forebears of the American revolution. Instead they think the tea partiers in Boston got the whole ball rolling, when in fact there had been two centuries of revolt and revolution already.
It was a much bigger deal than even mainstream historians seem to understand. But most Americans couldn't even begin to put it in context.
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Old 03-07-2020, 02:35 PM
 
3,417 posts, read 1,265,236 times
Reputation: 3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
Part of the reason it is over looked is because Cromwell was not a man of the people, indeed he slaughtered a lot of people and is still hated in Ireland and other areas.

It also should be noted that Cromwell was basically a protestant puritan who hated Catholics and this was not all about some great peoples revolution, indeed many ordinary people fought on the side of the King (Cavaliers) and against Cromwell (Roundheads) and his Parliamentarians, and Cromwell imposed his religouis beliefs on his victory, making life fairly miserable and pointless enjoyment was frowned upon.

Life in England under Oliver Cromwell - History Learning Site

Culture - When Christmas carols were banned - BBC

Parliament itself was full of wealthy land owners who expoited the poor, and only the very land owners wealthy had the vote, so this was not really a massive blow for the working people. It also so a high percentage pof the popul;ation killed, higher than WW1 or WW2.

The events after the English Civil War, such as the Restoration, which returned a moarch to the throne albeit with less power now that Parliament was in charge and then the Glorious Revolution when the catholic monarch James II was conspired against by protestants and the protestant William of Orange was helped to gain power. Therese events also play a part in how this period of history is remembered and James II was subsequently the last Roman Catholic Monarch.

The English Civil War was far more to do with one elite and religion against another, rather than a great peoples revolution that saw the aristorcray overthrown and excuted as in France or later in Russia.

The Restoration - Wikipedia

Glorious Revolution - Wikipedia

I agree that the figure of Oliver Cromwell is in many ways embarrassing to modern audiences. However he was a revolutionary figure at the time, and history proceeds in steps.

I can understand the hatred for the Catholic Church, as it had been a totalitarian institution for a millennium and really was evil at the time. It's akin to if communism had taken over the world in the 20th century and controlled people for 1000 years. You would hate that too. This hatred does not excuse Cromwell's hatred for Catholic civilians however, and I think he is rightly condemned for his atrocities.

Besides executing an anointed king, the New Model Army also demonstrated the power of infantry armed with firearms over cavalry. That was huge as it democratized warfare after a millennium of heavy cavalry (knights) dominating it.

The English civil war also defeated the nobility of the sword (private armies owned by rich lords) in the English speaking world, never to rise again. It also established the primacy of democratic control (through the imperfect instrument of parliament) over the armed forces. These improvements would take centuries to be replicated in other countries.
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Old 03-07-2020, 03:22 PM
 
3,417 posts, read 1,265,236 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
Most Americans know very little about their own history, let alone the history of other countries. The ECW is not of any importance to Americans.
The United States would not exist in its current form, if at all, had the English civil war not been fought.

I agree that its lack of importance is the perception.
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Old 03-07-2020, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
3,723 posts, read 2,997,857 times
Reputation: 4595
The problem is the vast majority of US students see history as boring drivel about dusty old farts.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
17,079 posts, read 6,324,822 times
Reputation: 11236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
I agree that the figure of Oliver Cromwell is in many ways embarrassing to modern audiences. However he was a revolutionary figure at the time, and history proceeds in steps.

I can understand the hatred for the Catholic Church, as it had been a totalitarian institution for a millennium and really was evil at the time. It's akin to if communism had taken over the world in the 20th century and controlled people for 1000 years. You would hate that too. This hatred does not excuse Cromwell's hatred for Catholic civilians however, and I think he is rightly condemned for his atrocities.

Besides executing an anointed king, the New Model Army also demonstrated the power of infantry armed with firearms over cavalry. That was huge as it democratized warfare after a millennium of heavy cavalry (knights) dominating it.

The English civil war also defeated the nobility of the sword (private armies owned by rich lords) in the English speaking world, never to rise again. It also established the primacy of democratic control (through the imperfect instrument of parliament) over the armed forces. These improvements would take centuries to be replicated in other countries.


The problems with the Catholic Church started with Henry VIII, the Reformation and the establishment of the Church of England, as well as the 'Dissolution of the Monasteries'.

Cromwwll did establish a good army, which went on to be the basis of a modern Army, although there were numerous other important reforms to the armed foces after Cromwell includuing the much later Cardwell reform.

Soon after the Restoration and Glorious Revolution the Union was established (1707), and Parliament did replace much of the powers of the Monarchy and often warring nobility, who know took their places as wealthy landed gentry in Parliament. The English Civil War having been preceded by previous civil wars such as the Wars of the Roses.

As for the lower classes, they still did not have the vote or much representation following the Civil War and could not be considered a great peoples revolution like the later French Revolution.

How Henry VIII’s Divorce Led to Reformation - History

Dissolution of the Monasteries - Wikipedia

Wars of the Roses - Wikipedia

Acts of Union 1707 - Wikipedia

Last edited by Brave New World; 03-08-2020 at 03:51 AM..
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:17 AM
 
23,464 posts, read 13,548,157 times
Reputation: 24502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
At least in the US, many people do not even know England had a civil war during the early colonial period. And it was much more consequential than the American revolution or the American civil war, which were largely conflicts between regional elites.

The English civil war was momentous because the English king was executed, 150 years before the French king. The Roundheads were directly challenging the idea of a king's divine right, which was part of the religious ferment at the time. The idea was so strongly ingrained that Cromwell, who had had a religious conversion before the war, was compelled to sign the order of execution himself because others were afraid to.

The French revolution is more notable because it spilled out across Europe as France was on the continent, but the English civil war was the first to see a monarch executed by commoners. It did not spill out because England was on an island.

The Dutch revolt had preceded the English civil war, as had the German Thirty Years War. All were aftershocks from the Reformation. Most American students of history don't know of those wars as well, despite the fact that they are the lineal forebears of the American revolution. Instead they think the tea partiers in Boston got the whole ball rolling, when in fact there had been two centuries of revolt and revolution already.

The bolded line is your own answer to your question.


However, the English Civil War--or, rather, the politics that led to it--did have a very direct and specific effect on the American Colonies, because of the impact on American political thought of the Separatists who had already emigrated to the colonies.



The ultimate effect was the First Amendment, which has been critical to character of the United States.
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:21 AM
 
23,464 posts, read 13,548,157 times
Reputation: 24502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
The United States would not exist in its current form, if at all, had the English civil war not been fought.

I agree that its lack of importance is the perception.

The essential lessons of the English Civil War had been transferred to the colonies before the English Civil War occurred.
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