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Old 03-08-2020, 10:22 AM
 
23,473 posts, read 13,557,110 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCHP View Post
The problem is the vast majority of US students see history as boring drivel about dusty old farts.

OTOH, a few years ago a survey in Britain revealed that a majority of British youth thought Winston Churchill was a fictional character and that Sherlock Holmes was historical.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:35 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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Well not to step on any toes but the English Civil War is a pretty obscure topic for most people even those that might consider themselves history buffs. That era has been covered for years by scholars and professional historians so the books and research are there for the interested.

For most of us who went through high school and college history was mostly confined to elective courses. And most of those courses were abridged Reader’s Digest material glossing over a lot of history. I have read a little about English history. Currently I’m reading about the reign of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I. I’m retired and have the time. I don’t know anyone in my senior peer group who cares a whit about history of any kind.
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Old 03-09-2020, 10:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
At least in the US, many people do not even know England had a civil war during the early colonial period. And it was much more consequential than the American revolution or the American civil war, which were largely conflicts between regional elites.

The English civil war was momentous because the English king was executed, 150 years before the French king. The Roundheads were directly challenging the idea of a king's divine right, which was part of the religious ferment at the time. The idea was so strongly ingrained that Cromwell, who had had a religious conversion before the war, was compelled to sign the order of execution himself because others were afraid to.

The French revolution is more notable because it spilled out across Europe as France was on the continent, but the English civil war was the first to see a monarch executed by commoners. It did not spill out because England was on an island.

The Dutch revolt had preceded the English civil war, as had the German Thirty Years War. All were aftershocks from the Reformation. Most American students of history don't know of those wars as well, despite the fact that they are the lineal forebears of the American revolution. Instead they think the tea partiers in Boston got the whole ball rolling, when in fact there had been two centuries of revolt and revolution already.

If they don't understand that, then they weren't paying attention in high school history class. Come on now.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Milwaukee
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I actually did learn about the English Civil War in my AP history class 14 years ago. First time I've heard anything mentioned about it since then.
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
At least in the US, many people do not even know England had a civil war during the early colonial period.
And most people in the UK know little to nothing about most of American history too. So what? What is this topic really about? The English Civil War, or how ignorant you think Americans are?

Quote:
And it was much more consequential than the American revolution or the American civil war, which were largely conflicts between regional elites.
The consequences of the English Civil War were reversed when the monarchy was restored not long later, so no, I do not agree that it was much more consequential than the American Revolution or American Civil War. The English Civil War did not result in the permanent absolution of slavery or the creation of a new nation. It did not even result in the permanent abolition of the monarchy. It's glossed over because it was a short lived blip in the history of the monarchy. I'm not saying it wasn't a big event or isn't worth studying, but I would strongly disagree it's a more important event than the American Revolution or American Civil War, especially for Americans. All countries spend more time on their own nation's history than other nations, that's only natural.

Quote:
It did not spill out because England was on an island.
Lol, that's ridiculous. As if England had no influence and power literally across the world at that time.

Quote:
The Dutch revolt had preceded the English civil war, as had the German Thirty Years War. All were aftershocks from the Reformation. Most American students of history don't know of those wars as well, despite the fact that they are the lineal forebears of the American revolution. Instead they think the tea partiers in Boston got the whole ball rolling, when in fact there had been two centuries of revolt and revolution already.
I don't know anyone who thinks that, especially students of history (by this, I assume you mean people electing to learn more about history than what is required in high school).
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Old 03-15-2020, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The essential lessons of the English Civil War had been transferred to the colonies before the English Civil War occurred.
No. You're right in saying the civil war gave the colonies a lesson, but the war came before the English colonized the New World to any degree.

The Pilgrims came as a result of the war. As Puritans, they were some of the war's most extreme zealots, and the Puritans fled England for Holland after the war from fear of reprisal.

While the Dutch were accepting, they still had problems with the Puritans extremism, and many of the Puritans were farmers and former land owners who didn't like life in Holland, where the lowland farms were nothing at all like the ones they were forced to leave. The Dutch didn't much like their strict religious zealotry either.

So they were ready to leave for the New World when offered the opportunity. Once here, they established their own isolated society that accorded with their world view. This contributed to our ignorance of the English Civil War, as they were coming from the loser's side of it.

We all create the history we want, and in our history, we are the winners, not the losers. That's human nature. We are each the hero of our individual history.
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Old 03-15-2020, 11:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
No. You're right in saying the civil war gave the colonies a lesson, but the war came before the English colonized the New World to any degree.

The Pilgrims came as a result of the war. As Puritans, they were some of the war's most extreme zealots, and the Puritans fled England for Holland after the war from fear of reprisal.

While the Dutch were accepting, they still had problems with the Puritans extremism, and many of the Puritans were farmers and former land owners who didn't like life in Holland, where the lowland farms were nothing at all like the ones they were forced to leave. The Dutch didn't much like their strict religious zealotry either.

So they were ready to leave for the New World when offered the opportunity. Once here, they established their own isolated society that accorded with their world view. This contributed to our ignorance of the English Civil War, as they were coming from the loser's side of it.

We all create the history we want, and in our history, we are the winners, not the losers. That's human nature. We are each the hero of our individual history.

The English Civil war occurred from 1642 to 1651.


The Mayflower arrived at Massachusetts in 1620...two decades before the English Civil War. So, no, the Puritans did not come to America as a result of the war, but certainly as a result of the politics that would lead to the war.



The politics leading up to the English Civil War (essentially, the politics occurring between the Thirty Years War and the English Civil War) provided the necessary lessons to the Puritans, which they transferred to American political thought.


Most importantly, Roger Williams, a radical Puritan pastor, arrived in Massachusetts in 1631, bringing to American the important values of the separation of Church and State from such an extremely absolutist point of view that it managed to have significant impact.


And that was a decade before the English Civil war.
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Why is the English civil war glossed over in history?
Because it's irrelevant.

Civil wars are ho-hum dime-a-dozen.

Every country, save Australia, has had a civil war.

The only thing you need to teach students is that wars may be external or internal.

Internal wars are classed as civil wars and they come in four flavors:

1) Wars of Colonial Independence. That would be the American Colonies vs Britain 1776
2) Wars of National Independence. That would be the various conflicts between the Scots and English, Irish and English, various ethnic groups in Spain, France and Italy and so on.
3) Wars of Political Independence. That would be like the US civil war 1861-1864.
4) Revolutionary Wars. That would be like the October 1917 Revolution in Russia.

Each of those has a particular goal. Colonialists seek independence from the Mother Country; Nationalists are typically oppressed politically, economically, socially and/or culturally and seek to govern their own affairs; Factionalists seek political independence; and Revolutionaries are one or more groups seeking to overthrow the government to replace the government or establish a new form of government.

Casualty figures and battles and generals are irrelevant and it isn't necessary to go into nauseating detail about those. What is relevant is why the conflict occurred and the goals of the parties involved.

Usually, you can teach that in 1-3 class periods, provided it is relevant to today, and depending on the complexity of the conflict. It should include some of the propaganda and disinformation spewed by the parties involved.
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Old 03-15-2020, 01:42 PM
 
Location: SF/East Bay
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The English Civil War stopped the migration of Puritans, and had a major impact on this country.

The whole Protestant vs. Catholic and Reformed/Calvinist vs. Established Protestant is taught far more heavily in Europe, but most colonial American cities were founded or settled by religious dissenters.
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Old 03-17-2020, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
17,097 posts, read 6,331,426 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
OTOH, a few years ago a survey in Britain revealed that a majority of British youth thought Winston Churchill was a fictional character and that Sherlock Holmes was historical.
I recall the 2008 survey but it wasn't a majority, and the survey was later criticised with a Freedom of information (FOI) request revealing use of PR-commissioned opinion polls and lack of any concrete research.

The poll was by a hotel group called Premier Inn, which used it to suggest historical ignorance was something that "can be rectified by visiting all the fantastic landmarks and places of interest the UK has to offer" by visiting their hotels, and there was also an article in the London Mums magazine.

Proper research could not be presented nor could any evidence to support the poll and the polls were not commissioned by professional polling companies, nor did they meet the standards of the British Polling Council.

It should be noted it;s very easy to manipulate polls in order to try and encourage hotel bookings or to promote and advertise.

Gove's claims of teenagers' ignorance harpooned by retired techer - The Guardian


Last edited by Brave New World; 03-17-2020 at 07:30 AM..
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