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Old 03-08-2020, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,571 posts, read 20,559,248 times
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It is not as though refraining from the use of the atomic bombs would have been a kindness to Japan. If there had been no such weapons, there still would have been a war to win. That would have meant that the air campaign against Japan would have continued with conventional bombs. Would fewer or more Japanese citizens have lost their lives under that? It also would have meant sustaining the naval blockade around Japan which eventually would have created starvation conditions. Such a condition would have generated the diseases which come with being malnourished, killing an incalculable thousands.

Finally, if the above proved insufficient to compel a surrender, a ground invasion would have taken place. Millions were likely to have died under those circumstances. It seems highly probable that more Japanese citizens would have perished in concluding the war without the use of the atomic bombs, than did die from those bombs.

And that is just considering Japanese lives. The loss in American lives would have also been far higher.

Sixty million people died during WW II, to identify 150,000 of those losses as the product of a special immorality seems absurd. None of the dead wanted to die.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:21 PM
 
14,048 posts, read 20,266,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonyforest View Post
From a military standpoint we "won" the war. From a humanity stand point, blood on your hands doesn't wash off. We can justify what had to be done, but we don't have to like.
Let's be clear - there is no blood on anyones hands except the ones that started that terrible war.

You should say this - no one gleefully celebrates the dropping of the atomic bomb, but damned if most of the countries in the world didn't celebrate, and still do, the end of that war.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:31 PM
 
Location: North America
3,530 posts, read 1,219,362 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
Today is the day in 1945 that the US bombed Tokyo, the biggest bombing run ever conducted. Obviously, it didn't cause Japan to consider ending the war, since the war went on for over 4 more months. If blowing up the capital city didn't do it, something else would have to be done. Invading Japan was estimated to take over 1 million American lives. Instead, 2 bombs did the trick.
There is a curious disconnect in some minds between the idea of killing 100,000 people with incendiaries on one hand, and with fission on the other hand.

While I have noted on multiple occasions that I don't take the popular position that opposition to the atomic bombings must be dismissed and/or shouted down, I do not the some portion of that opposition derives from anti-American sentiments. I am reminded of the Canadian poster who mentioned that he has friends who were sharply critical of 'the US's decision to nuke Japan'. He - and presumably his friends - were unaware that Canada was a partner in the Manhattan Project, that during the Cold War Canada had nuclear weapons deployed on its territory and designed delivery systems for nuclear weapons, that Ottawa strongly supported the use of nuclear weapons against Japan, and that the Quebec Agreement explicitly agreed that the Allied use of nuclear weapons would not be unilateral but would only ensue on the joint agreement of the United States and the United Kingdom. It seems that castigating London and Ottawa for their roles in the atomic bombings was not in the interest of those railing against the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
It is interesting that you would say now if it were the other way around Japan dropped atomic bombs on the USA, if they had them? Of course, this would be an "unthinkable crime against humanity"
While not disagreeing with the U.S. use of nuclear weapons, my position therein is reached not because of what Imperial Japan would or would not have done. Imperial Japan was not worthy as a model of behavior, and the fact that Imperial Japan did something does not justify doing that thing to the people of Imperial Japan. That's a lazy argument, and it's implications - that enslaving women as prostitutes, that brutally abusing POWs, that bayoneting civilians for no conceivable military purpose, are all acceptable because that's what Imperial Japan did - are disturbing.
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Old 03-08-2020, 02:25 PM
 
Location: San Diego
10,996 posts, read 3,104,130 times
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We dropped the Bomb on Japan to end the war with minimum American casualties. It worked, therefore it was justified.

As it happens, we also caused far less Japanese casualties by dropping it, than we would have if we'd had to invade Japan instead. But that wasn't the reason we dropped it. Just a nice freebie for those who started the war, then kept fighting long after there was any chance left they could possibly "win".
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:15 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
6,686 posts, read 4,479,544 times
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And of course ultimately the Japanese leadership of the time had absolute responsibility for the bloodbath that culminated at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was they who gambled on carving out a Japanese Empire in Asia that was thwarted by a coalition of American, British and Australian forces.

It would have been an empire mostly for the benefit of themselves not the ordinary Japanese civilian or soldier who died in masses in suicide charges or were incinerated by nuclear and atomic bombing. They hung on to the bitter end to hold their power and privilege irregardless of how many innocent Japanese died.
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Old 03-08-2020, 04:14 PM
 
1,642 posts, read 1,337,249 times
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Innocent children never deserve to die, that’s a ridiculous statement.
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Islip Township
564 posts, read 817,972 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccc123 View Post
Innocent children never deserve to die, that’s a ridiculous statement.
Really ? Why didn't they protect there children ? They were warned about a New super weapon. And like the Others said. We didn't start this They did
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Old 03-08-2020, 05:57 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,479 posts, read 2,044,679 times
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Default It was a hard life anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevar242 View Post
Really ? Why didn't they protect there children ? They were warned about a New super weapon. And like the Others said. We didn't start this They did
They did. IJ had an evacuation program running, starting in 1943. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacua...g_World_War_II for more details.

"About 8.5 million Japanese civilians were displaced from their homes between 1943 and 1945 as a result of air raids on Japan by the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) during World War II. These evacuations started in December 1943 as a voluntary government program to prepare the country's main cities for bombing raids by evacuating children, women and the elderly to rural towns. After American bombers started to devastate entire cities in 1945[1] millions more civilians fled to the countryside."

(My emphasis)
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:42 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
87,876 posts, read 81,672,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msgenerse View Post
I've read a lot of debate on whether or not dropping the nukes on Japan was really justified. How could they not be? As they say don't start a fight but make sure to end it. After Pearl Harbor and all that happened in the Pacific, Japan very much deserved what they got, heck, they're lucky they only got nuked twice. Heck, the very fact that in their extreme obstinance the fact they didn't immediately surrender after the first bomb in and of itself meant they deserved another, and even after THAT they still waited awhile to surrender.

I know people may bring up the civilians killed due to them, but hey, they're the ones that started it, they have no one to blame but themselves for it. And honestly, were I in charge then I'd say just drop a nuke every day until they surrendered. Not to mention the alternative was a full on invasion of the home islands which would have caused tens of thousands of casualties on our side, we were really on a "us or them" mindset. And could you imagine how parents would have felt had we not used the nukes and went ahead with Operation Downfall and a year later it had come out we had a weapon we could have used to very likely end the war much earlier but didn't use it? Truman would have been thrown out of office fast!

Call me cold, but I don't feel the least bit bad for any Japanese that were killed during WWII, they have only themselves to blame for starting it. They never should have started the crap in the first place if they didn't want what they eventually got. Kind of like some small kid in school starting something with a much bigger and stronger guy then acts surprised when they get thoroughly beaten down. And it's so strange how anyone could have thought dropping the nukes wasn't 120% justified.
It's a good thing you weren't in charge.

People question it, because they say Russia was about to take on Japan from their Far Eastern territory. If we'd waited just a bit, dropping the bombs may not have been necessary.

So, you're ok with the possibility of Iran nuking the US for its involvement in the Middle East? Starting wars in Iraq (twice) and Afghanistan? The American people only have themselves to blame for that, don't they? According to your reasoning?
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
9,001 posts, read 5,088,159 times
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I kind of understand the anti-nuke point of view. The idea of incinerating an entire city in one fell swoop, and killing thousands of innocent civilians, including children, is morally horrifying to anyone with a conscience.

But while I understand this view, I don't agree with it. I don't "like" that we dropped nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, any more than I "like" that we firebombed Tokyo and 60-some other cities. But I do believe that doing these things was necessary to defeat a barbarous regime with the blood of millions on their hands. And that if we had not done these things, millions more would have met a similar fate. Sometimes, especially in war, there are no good choices; only less-bad ones.
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