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I have no reason to believe your representations are accurate. It is impossible to examine the actions of the federal authorities in this matter and not come away with the conclusion that the outcome of this debacle could have been a far more positive one.
I have no reason to believe your representations are accurate. It is impossible to examine the actions of the federal authorities in this matter and not come away with the conclusion that the outcome of this debacle could have been a far more positive one.
Koresh was intent on a cataclysmic ending. Had the feds not brought it — had we sent in Gandhi to sit and patiently negotiate with them without a time limit — there still would have been no 'good' end to the mess.
The BDs were not peaceful outsiders seeking to be left alone. They were a doomsday cult and may well have gone out with a bigger cataclysm if not contained.
The same reason for many of these idiotic SWAT tactics, all for show.
Nothing better than having not one, not two, but five officers (including Marshals) follow a suspect from his home, to a store, to this, to that, and then when he is home, do an elaborate SWAT breach of his house complete with the flash bang effects, and about 50 officers.
This is a complex issue which is going to end in a tail-spin of back and forth recriminations I fear. My background; I have forty-one years in law enforcement (+20 NYPD, +20 chief of police in MA town).
SWAT is a double-edged sword. Such units are vital at times, but can, and have been, badly abused. I wrote about this subject in my book, Use of Force in Modern Policing. From the chapter on SWAT use, SWAT Units ~ A Conundrum:
I think it important to understand a few things about Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) units before jumping into the chapter. First, and this is important, SWAT units, as a rule, do not initiate raids prior to being called out for service. SWAT units are there for line-officer support, are used by uniform and investigative police personnel during particularly dangerous missions, tasks which require highly specialized training and equipment on the part of the first wave of officers or agents dealing with the situation. Prior to SWAT utilization for a forced entry it is virtually axiomatic that a signed warrant, affirming necessary facts first presented to an impartial magistrate who, if satisfied, issued the warrant, based on probable cause.
The reason this point is important to be aware of is because there have been a significant number of SWAT raids, or police actions attributed to SWAT units, where homes have been wrongly invaded, innocent people –adults and children– have been injured, killed or crippled, pets shot and trauma suffered by citizens who were on the wrong end of such an incident. Almost by definition, a forced entry entails the use of force both for gaining initial access into the location but also for securing the people inside as well. A poorly considered or improperly obtained warrant is simply the first step in what could possibly spiral down to a tragic error.
I go into a good deal of detail in my book on the use of such units. The dilemma which I have come to see is, the inappropriate militarization of such units. Again, there are times when an overwhelming use of force is appropriate and necessary for the protection of officers and the tactical situation they are facing. The problem comes from too many SWAT units being out there, with their personnel receiving little or no training in how to comport themselves in a lawful manner. These units, too often, have lots of equipment, their members get to "dress up" like "real" SWAT unit members, and they feel compelled to demonstrate their equipment when such a level of force is both unwarranted and inappropriate.
I mentioned the raid in question in my book:
Another matter which ought to be considered is the fact that there is but a loose definition of what comprises a SWAT unit. The federal government will state, truthfully, that only a single SWAT unit exists within federal law enforcement, that unit being in the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). Yet, I clearly recall seeing video of the Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives raid in Waco Texas in February 1993 during that agency’s attempt to enter the compound of the Branch Davidians. A review of one of the many videos of the event show the ATFE agents were equipped with all the gear associated with SWAT units; Kevlar helmets, military style outer garments, knee and elbow protectors and the agents were armed with an assortment of long arms and machine guns, among the weaponry they carried and used that day.
So, if my understanding of the federal nomenclature and definition of what a SWAT unit is, in fact, correct, this was not a SWAT raid. Whatever “it” was, it did not go as planned. Retired Special Agent William Buford was quoted as stating, "We were going to go in there, we were going to kick a little bootie, then we were going to ease out and be home before noon. It didn't work out that way," At any rate, more than a “little bootie” got kicked that day. Eventually the FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) ended the siege, which resulted in an ultimate death toll of approximately seventy people, many of whom were children, who died inside the compound’s structures.
Again, too complex an issue for a City-Data posting.
No one has defended him. Its more of questioning the tactics and motives of the government.
Who took one of two bad roads, and would have been castigated for either one.
Sorry, I don't buy "because the government did it, it was bad."
Just as with a jumper no one can safely reach or a drunk wandering around an interstate, the fault does not lie with the government. I'm not in the habit of blindly defending Big Bruddah, but there's a point at which individual choices and behavior carry their own consequences no matter who's driving the truck that hits you.
All that blood is on Koresh's hands, and I sincerely hope his hell exists.
While he did preach non violence and peace, the Jesus of the Bible did get violent with the money changers in the temple.
One thing I always get a kick out of is the preaching that that homeless person you see on the street could be Jesus and he's testing people for their behavior to which I would respond since I keep seeing the same Jesus testing multiple people everyday for the last ten years why didn't Jesus give everyone the same test he gave Adam?
Trivia: What did the four ATF agents (and only raiding 'freeing' party deaths) killed in the siege at Waco:
Steve Willis
Robert Williams
Todd McKeehan
Conway Charles LeBeau
All have in common besides being shot in the head at close range?
For some levity there is this dark comedy bit by Bill Hicks (note language if you are easily offended)
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