When H2H/Melee combat (Swords/spears) combined with firearms/guns (muskets) (ancient, Romans)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I think I asked this question before on here about when humans transitioned from fighting by slashing and hacking, and throwing to shooting each other, and lobbing/dropping explosives on each other.
I cant seem to find the thread though.
Well, I believe I have pinpointed when they started using both in conjunction. That time is during the late medievel, early rennassaince/colonial period. The time of the Spanish Tercios, and Push of Pike actions.
Spanish Tercios and likely most of the major powers at the time basically was spearmen forming a wall, and the musketeers in the back shooting. At first, the gunners would fire off, and then squares come together and become what is called push of pike which is like the ancient hoplite style, except no shield for protection. A lot of H2H/Melee combat with swords occurred, and with no shield this is horrific. Now by this time, armor was pretty good up to point even the infantry had the cuirasses, but a shield is probably better.
Eventually, they created the Bayonet and that combines the spearmen, and the gunman. But apparently the push of pike went away as well. Appears that very few deaths wounds are from bayonet stabs.
So that still leaves the question of why this push of pike went away, and when did armies stop using the shield. And what battle did we see the arquebus replace the crossbow/long bow.
We see in the movie that the musket bullets are still too weak and ineffective.
I think warriors stopped using the shield in the XVI century. I never saw the pictures of conquistadors with shields.
We see in the movie that the musket bullets are still too weak and ineffective.
I think warriors stopped using the shield in the XVI century. I never saw the pictures of conquistadors with shields.
By then I think even the infantry was wearing chest plates, and they felt shield is redundant. But in push of pike, your arms, and legs are severely exposed. But then what do I know. I love to some youtuber to do a push of pike instructional vid. Back then there were schools that teach you how to fight which can be used for reference.
Does a bayonet qualify as a sword or spear and would the combat that ensued qualify as a melee? If so, at least in US military history, there was at least one bayonet charge during the Korean War.
Does a bayonet qualify as a sword or spear and would the combat that ensued qualify as a melee? If so, at least in US military history, there was at least one bayonet charge during the Korean War.
The Bayonet combines musketeers with pikemen. But it seems the push of pike disappears. Bayonet charges rarely caused any stabbing deaths.
"Pike and Shot" was an entire genre of warfare in the 16th century. Pike because, as you say, the weapon was very effective against both infantry and cavalry. Shot because firearms were still in development - they were innacurate and clumsy. But they still had a function as a ranged weapon.
But ranged weapons have always existed, and some civilizations excelled at skirmish tactics with ranged weapons (spears, bows, slings), particularly on horseback or chariot. Really the difference in technological development is with firearms you needed less training to operate, that's why bows and crossbows started to dissapear. The british longbow was fearsome, but it took years to training and conditioning for a soldier to use it effectively. As firearms became more advanced (i.e. quicker to load and fire, more accurate) starting with flintocks really as a simple way to ignite the charge, it's role on the battlefield increased. As has been said, bayonets replaced pikes, but at that stage bayonets were only used as shock weapons (and even then, a bayonet charge would usually results in the enemy retreating before they came into melee range) or to defend against cavalry because horses don't like charging into sharp pointy things.
Shields were dropped around the 13th century. Armour got to the point that it was good enpugh to stop the majority of the arrows/bolts flying about and you really needed a two handed weapon to do some damage.
Shields were dropped around the 13th century. Armour got to the point that it was good enpugh to stop the majority of the arrows/bolts flying about and you really needed a two handed weapon to do some damage.
But then how did push of pike work? There were still openings that a pikemen can exploit. A shield you can move around and block or parry with. Essentially a shield is a neutralizing agent. Your chest plate not so much. And since you are in a tight formation, you cannot dodge. Did the opposing sides try to grab the opposite pikes?
But then how did push of pike work? There were still openings that a pikemen can exploit. A shield you can move around and block or parry with. Essentially a shield is a neutralizing agent. Your chest plate not so much. And since you are in a tight formation, you cannot dodge. Did the opposing sides try to grab the opposite pikes?
Pike warfare was effective for armour because once an enemy pikeman falls, trips, pushed down, whatever, it was game over - he was killed or captured.
Killed by pushing a dagger in unprotected areas - face mask, armpits, whatever. Flanking was everything in pike warfare, that was the countermeasure. Hitting them in the rear or sides, preferably with cavalry. That and longer spears then the other guy until finally the approached the point (no pun here) were it was unwieldy to even handle these long pikes. It's not really that much different from the dark ages "shield wall" or the ancient greek phalanx. Muskets replaced the bow, horse cavalry was still there.
Also there was a video on youtube, for a movie but forgot which one, where it showed soldiers manuevering under the long spears, literally crouching down quickly, slashing at ankles and legs and taking out enemy pikemen with a dagger. That I assume would be accurate as well.
Pike warfare was effective for armour because once an enemy pikeman falls, trips, pushed down, whatever, it was game over - he was killed or captured.
Killed by pushing a dagger in unprotected areas - face mask, armpits, whatever. Flanking was everything in pike warfare, that was the countermeasure. Hitting them in the rear or sides, preferably with cavalry. That and longer spears then the other guy until finally the approached the point (no pun here) were it was unwieldy to even handle these long pikes. It's not really that much different from the dark ages "shield wall" or the ancient greek phalanx. Muskets replaced the bow, horse cavalry was still there.
Also there was a video on youtube, for a movie but forgot which one, where it showed soldiers manuevering under the long spears, literally crouching down quickly, slashing at ankles and legs and taking out enemy pikemen with a dagger. That I assume would be accurate as well.
I believe I posted that video. It is a movie starring Viggo Mortensen called Alatriste. Its about the Spanish Tercio. You see the soldiers ducking underneath the pike and slashing at people's legs.
But the shield is still great at neutralizing the pike alone in direct assault. The greek hoplites, and Roman Legions where well armored on their bodies, and still carried the shield. It lets them close ranks with similar shield walls, and pike walls. The Macedonians apparently also carried long pike with small shield, and they lost to the Romans.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
