Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So because Eleanor was a lesbian and “must have known” that her husband had started seeing Lucy again, it was perfectly fine for Daisy to say something that was hurtful to a grieving widow? OK, got it. Thanks.
No, that as you describe it is not the point.
The point is that the romantic relationship between Eleanor and Franklin had ceased to exist utterly in 1918, 27 years before the events of his death. And for some time prior to that, it was a weak relationship in that sense. Just as a legal marriage is not a necessity for romantic love, a legal marriage does not assure romantic love. In both the romantic and sexual sense, by 1945 Franklin had merely been Eleanor's ex for more than a quarter century.
The turning point in 1918 was probably painful to Eleanor, but not altogether unwelcome. She was not interested in a sexual relationship with Franklin, and their subsequent understanding - that they (or he, anyway, for I doubt it was entirely egalitarian) would live separate personal lives while perpetuating the legal marriage and the public image of a normal marriage is a political partnership - in many ways provided happiness for her that she would not otherwise have had.
So it was not her lover, her betrothed - except in a technical, legal sense - who died in Warm Springs. It was a man for whom she had once, long ago, had romantic affection but who had been exclusively a partner for her in non-sexual, non-romantic pursuits for well over two decades. I imagine her feelings might have been mixed at the details of his company at his death, but it's not like she walked in unsuspecting and found him in flagrante delicto. At that point, the understanding - that his intimate life and her intimate life were separate things and not the others concern - was well established.
The point is that the romantic relationship between Eleanor and Franklin had ceased to exist utterly in 1918, 27 years before the events of his death. And for some time prior to that, it was a weak relationship in that sense. Just as a legal marriage is not a necessity for romantic love, a legal marriage does not assure romantic love. In both the romantic and sexual sense, by 1945 Franklin had merely been Eleanor's ex for more than a quarter century.
The turning point in 1918 was probably painful to Eleanor, but not altogether unwelcome. She was not interested in a sexual relationship with Franklin, and their subsequent understanding - that they (or he, anyway, for I doubt it was entirely egalitarian) would live separate personal lives while perpetuating the legal marriage and the public image of a normal marriage is a political partnership - in many ways provided happiness for her that she would not otherwise have had.
So it was not her lover, her betrothed - except in a technical, legal sense - who died in Warm Springs. It was a man for whom she had once, long ago, had romantic affection but who had been exclusively a partner for her in non-sexual, non-romantic pursuits for well over two decades. I imagine her feelings might have been mixed at the details of his company at his death, but it's not like she walked in unsuspecting and found him in flagrante delicto. At that point, the understanding - that his intimate life and her intimate life were separate things and not the others concern - was well established.
So Daisy watched him grab his head and collapse, and muttered, "Oh, deah me" from across the room?
I am now fully convinced this topic poked a deep sore spot with you on a personal level. Which is fine, as long as you're willing to own up instead of sort of preach morality from a high pedestal.
I agree this has triggered the OP somehow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea4
Doesn't this seem like a bitchy and cruel thing to do? Suckley could have explained the circumstances of FDR's death without bringing any of that up. I don't know why, but this really bothers me. The knowledge of FDR's and Anna's betrayal served no purpose other than to add to Eleanor's anguish. Why do you think she did this?
Just about every one on this thread, who you asked, has disagreed with the assessment that it was a bitchy and cruel thing to do and your response seems to be irritation to being rude.
You did ask our opinion.
At best, Eleanor and FDR had a mutual admiration and had long ago stopped having a romantic involvement.
It's general knowledge (even then, it was from what I was told) that Eleanor was with her GF when he died. So what?
I will say one thing, some of those PBS presentations are very interesting and well done (taxpayer money or not). I like the way they walk the tightrope being careful to not inadvertently offend some people.
So Daisy watched him grab his head and collapse, and muttered, "Oh, deah me" from across the room?
I am now fully convinced this topic poked a deep sore spot with you on a personal level. Which is fine, as long as you're willing to own up instead of sort of preach morality from a high pedestal.
Can you please explain what you mean by this "deep sore spot" and preaching morality? What do I need to "own up" to? My point in posting was not about the Roosevelts' marriage, FDR's affairs or Eleanor's alleged sexual orientation. That was no one's business but their own. Upper-class people then, and now, tend to tolerate affairs within a marriage so long as they're discreet and don't cause embarrassment. Eleanor apparently accepted that FDR would pursue his own interests. She just didn't want to know about it. I am only interested in what FDR's cousin's motive may have been for breaking that unwritten rule.
I stand corrected on one point. My husband and I have several books on the Roosevelts. Two of these books state that it was Franklin's cousin, Laura Delano, who told Eleanor about Lucy, not Daisy, as I believed after watching The Roosevelts.
Here is a quote from one of the books, The Wars of the Roosevelts by William J. Mann, on what happened when Eleanor arrived at the Warm Springs cottage:
Quote:
Franklin's women - or some of them, at least - were sitting up waiting for her. Eleanor was composed as she entered the house and calm as she spoke with the ladies, hearing first from Grace Tully [FDR's secretary] and then from Daisy Suckley the chronology of her husband's last day.
Then she turned to Laura Delano. Franklin's cousin told her in the most casual way that Lucy Mercer Rutherfurd had been there. Later, when she was criticized for doing so, Laura would insist, "Eleanor would have found out anyway."
Can you please explain what you mean by this "deep sore spot?"
Sorry, someone else already used the au courant term: triggered.
You seem to be reacting extremely and all out of proportion to reasonable interpretations of this event. You've done everything but shriek "THAT TRAITOROUS B*TCH!"
It's not too much of a leap to guess you might have a sensitivity to such treason. In any case, you don't seem to be approaching this very reasonably, especially given the historical and personal ambiguities. You've chosen an interpretation that makes a series of assumptions about everyone involved — and there are other valid assumptions.
Yes, it was. In 1918, after Eleanor discovered that her social secretary Lucy Mercer (later Rutherfurd) was FDR's mistress, she offered to divorce him. He knew that a divorce would ruin his political chances, so he agreed to stop seeing Lucy if she would stay married to him. The marriage was in name only, but it was a strong political partnership and they still loved and respected each other.
FDR broke his promise. Of course it this is understandable since he was in a sexless marriage. This is not what bothers me. What bothers me is that Daisy Suckley felt it was necessary to tell Eleanor that FDR was still seeing Lucy and that Lucy had been with him when he died. Why did she do this? Did she hate Eleanor and want to hurt her at what must have been the saddest and most difficult time of her life? Did she enjoy causing pain? I just don't get it.
I think these people are 'special' in a way, and that's why you don't get it. They aren't living a normal husband/wife existence.
If I love my husband like a brother, why would it hurt me to know his mistress was with him?
They had a sexless marriage? Okay, had they agreed he would remain celibate for life? Is it reasonable to believe he would? Obviously it isn't, if we understand how a man's body works. If Eleanor loved and respected him, she would have respected his personal needs as well.
I think if Daisy was looking to hurt anyone, she would not have waited for FDR to pass and Eleanor to ask before making her revelation.
How did the producers portray Eleanor at this moment? Like a grieving widow, or a woman scorned?
Did she seem to hate Daisy for answering her question honestly?
If I love and respect someone, it would make me happy to know they did not die alone.
"Woman scorned? "Oh, good grief. This thread is turning into a prime time soap opera. I had no idea I was setting off such a firestorm.
The Roosevelts documentary is excellent and, while being sympathetic to both Franklin and Eleanor, does not gloss over their personal problems or their faults.
I am sorry if I appear to be "triggered" or "reacting way out of proportion." I just thought that the cousin was out of line, that's all, and I used the word "bitchy" to describe how her behavior seemed to me. But oh, well, you're entitled to whatever you want to think. It's a free country. Carry on.
Ah yes. The salacious tales of presidential families. You could go on and on. Jefferson, James Buchanan, Warren Harding, Eisenhower, Kennedy and the newest Commander in Chief. American presidential history. The naughty stuff.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I had no idea I was setting off such a firestorm.
