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Old 06-11-2020, 12:00 PM
 
2,072 posts, read 535,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouse789 View Post
So then all things offensive must be removed?
All things deeply offensive to at least 10% of the population, on a level that cannot be "counseled away" or "come to terms with," and should be offensive to pretty much everyone else on a level where tolerance is not really the right answer... yep.

 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Paradise
2,526 posts, read 2,240,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouse789 View Post
Should they be removed? hmmmm. possibly yes. But not by frenzied mobs. Where are the police?

Regarding the confederate statues. We as a country, brothers were divided. Sides were chosen and we fought. A messy bloody war. The war ended, and as brothers or family of states we forgive one another. These statues commemorate their military prowess, a worthy enough opponent, and we move on. It's a part of our family/country's history.

what I see is the early stages of historical white wash. Statues, Gone with the Wind having warnings at the beginning of the movie. Censorship on YouTube.

If we go down this road, where will it end. If it's good for one, then it must be true for all. Be rid of Ceasars bust, Cleopatra statues. Throw down George Washington, wipe him and Jefferson off our currency. Be rid of what some deem as offensive art. Let's create this new era. Let's pay homage to JFK. Oops wait a second, we are in the me too movement. Let's pay homage to Dr. King . Another oopsie. Me too movement wouldn't like him either. Wasn't every civilization created off the back of another? I am seeing patterns here. One, nobody is perfect, not one. Two, almost looks like Germany in the years leading up to WWII. Wow I'm all over the map now. ok I'm out

Agree with grouse789, shades of "1984" and the sterilization of "history"...
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Ohio
22,099 posts, read 15,435,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LO28SWM View Post
Is anyone concerned about the removal of statues?
No.

Seriously, the last time I looked at a statue was about 20 years ago in Frei Hanser Stadt Bremen. It was a rooster standing atop a cat standing atop a dog standing atop a donkey. Yeah, there's a story behind that.

Statues are a thing of Generations long since dead.

You know, they couldn't exactly look up someone's photo on the internet, so they had to make a statue of that person's likeness.

We got statues in Cincinnati, but other than Fountain Square, I'll be damned if I know what they are.

There's one on 8th & Race Streets but I have no idea who/what it is even though I pass by it a few times a week walking home. Never really looked at it and don't really care.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:09 PM
 
2,072 posts, read 535,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunetunelover View Post
Agree with grouse789, shades of "1984" and the sterilization of "history"...
Oh, horse 'ockies. No one is erasing these figures from history, but their place in history is in a complete context of their time, actions and attitudes, not "look upon ye great man gazing over the city built by his slaves."

Get back to us when the Taliban blows up Stone Mountain.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
1,646 posts, read 621,220 times
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I'm concerned about it. On the one hand, people can decide to build and remove statues at any time if democratically justified, on the other hand it can be cultural and historical vandalism. Those statues symbolize the past, and the different times that a place moved through. Removing the statues doesn't remove the fact Virginia used to be part of the Confederacy and Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy. In fact, it's probably the most notable and famous thing about an otherwise fairly forgettable medium sized city without much else to set it apart.



Virginia is an interesting case here because the state population as a whole valued the legacy of men like Lee and his lieutenants until quite recently. Of course, then the state saw an influx of people like myself with no connection to the South or the state itself. So the public position in sheer quantitative terms shifted as Virginia transformed politically into a state dominated by D.C. and by extension the Northeast Corridor with all that entails.


I am always bewildered by the hostility to Robert E. Lee in particular. I'm not even that old, but I remember him as a nearly universally respected - even admired - person who many people considered one of the greatest Americans of all time...and not even just Southerners. That was pretty much the consensus view as recently as maybe 15-20 years ago. It's one of the absurdities of our time, that Lee is more loathed by some people today than he was by people who were actively trying to kill him at one point.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:16 PM
 
2,072 posts, read 535,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit View Post
Removing the statues doesn't remove the fact Virginia used to be part of the Confederacy and Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy.
But it does stop venerating it.

Quote:
I am always bewildered by the hostility to Robert E. Lee in particular. I'm not even that old, but I remember him as a nearly universally respected - even admired - person who many people considered one of the greatest Americans of all time...and not even just Southerners. That was pretty much the consensus view as recently as maybe 15-20 years ago. It's one of the absurdities of our time, that Lee is more loathed by some people today than by people who were actively trying to kill him at one point.
Only true if held upside down and backwards, kinda like recent Bibles of note.

Yes, Lee was a respected American until the split. He then led the fight for something so foul no amount of 'honor' and 'decency' and so forth can really offset. He is and should remain a memorable figure; he (literally) should not be placed on a pedestal.

As for "everyone loved him until recently," we are only a few decades coming out of the rancid revisionism of the Lost Cause brigade, in which Proud Southerners Fought For Their Rights and slavery was, well deah, not no nevahmind.

Benedict Arnold was once one of the most respected men — and officers — in the Colonial US. Choices matter, and traitors and those who rebel to support a monstrously cruel system are not men to honor.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
1,646 posts, read 621,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
Yes, Lee was a respected American until the split. He then led the fight for something so foul no amount of 'honor' and 'decency' and so forth can really offset. He is and should remain a memorable figure; he (literally) should not be placed on a pedestal.

As for "everyone loved him until recently," we are only a few decades coming out of the rancid revisionism of the Lost Cause brigade, in which Proud Southerners Fought For Their Rights and slavery was, well deah, not no nevahmind.

Benedict Arnold was once one of the most respected men — and officers — in the Colonial US. Choices matter, and traitors/rebels/supporters of a monstrously cruel system are not men to honor.

Lee was widely respected in the North even after the split. Eisenhower - from Kansas - called him one of the greatest Americans. So did Teddy Roosevelt from New York. People admired the man and his qualities even if they disagreed with the cause he ultimately took up arms to defend.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:34 PM
 
2,072 posts, read 535,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Veritas Vincit View Post
Lee was widely respected in the North even after the split. Eisenhower - from Kansas - called him one of the greatest Americans. So did Teddy Roosevelt from New York. People admired the man and his qualities even if they disagreed with the cause he ultimately took up arms to defend.
TR: roughly 1900-1920.
Ike: roughly 1945-1960.
Lost Cause: 1890-1960s (and beyond)

I don't disagree that Lee was an admirable man in many ways. He just chose the wrong side, and a side that in the end has no real defense.

List everything of historical importance he did other than lead the Confederate Army. I can't make a list long enough to warrant a statue.

To put it another way: there may be a faction trying to demonize all the CSA figures, but I'm not in it. There were true SOB bastards in there — Forrest, whoever led the Fort Pillow slaughter, any CSA officer who executed black Union soldiers, etc. — but no one of significance is saying they were all bad men for being on that side, or even that many of them aside from the CSA thing were great or nearly-great Americans.

But.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Northern Virginia
1,646 posts, read 621,220 times
Reputation: 4219
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therblig View Post
TR: roughly 1900-1920.
Ike: roughly 1945-1960.
Lost Cause: 1890-1960s (and beyond)

I don't disagree that Lee was an admirable man in many ways. He just chose the wrong side, and a side that in the end has no real defense.

List everything of historical importance he did other than lead the Confederate Army. I can't make a list long enough to warrant a statue.

The Confederacy came to be to protect slavery, so it's fair to call slavery the main issue of the Civil War. But not everyone serving the Confederacy did so for the sake of slavery primarily or even at all. It was widely understood - and Lee had made no secret of it at the time - that Lee chose to fight for the Confederacy only because he was always going to side with the state of Virginia. It was therefore a decision made out of his personal sense of loyalty and integrity. He felt more bound to his home state than the union. In 1861 this was not an outrageous call, but one made by quite a few. It was in some ways the culmination of a debate that had raged on since the first Continental Congress.


The historical context makes Lee's actions understandable, even defensible. People understood that in 1900 and in 1950. And it's cheap to say guys like Eisenhower or Teddy Roosevelt were Lost Cause guys. I'll take their judgment over that of just about any politician alive today.
 
Old 06-11-2020, 12:49 PM
 
1,910 posts, read 1,185,375 times
Reputation: 3551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
No.
Statues are a thing of Generations long since dead.
I'll be damned if I know what they are.and don't really care.
Well at least you admit that your indifference toward statue destruction is rooted in ignorance. It shows more self awareness than the vandals destroying statues across America. peace
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