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He's also responsible for the deaths from the war because of his extreme purge of the military just before WWII.
Seizing eastern Poland was brilliant because it kept the oil deposits out of German hands.
The USSR tried to form an alliance with Britain and France but they rejected him so he made a deal with Germany to keep half of Poland from their grasp while buying time to prepare for war.
He had no way of knowing the western front would fall so fast.
He's also responsible for the deaths from the war because of his extreme purge of the military just before WWII.
I don't think that these purges in the army on the verge of Barbarossa changed anything significantly ( the number of deaths among Russian soldiers that followed, including.)
But yes, I believe that Stalin was personally guilty, when it comes to the execution of many innocent people in the upper echelon of the Soviet commandment ( in Soviet army in particular.)
Seizing eastern Poland was brilliant because it kept the oil deposits out of German hands.
The USSR tried to form an alliance with Britain and France but they rejected him so he made a deal with Germany to keep half of Poland from their grasp while buying time to prepare for war.
He had no way of knowing the western front would fall so fast.
No one wants to remember THIS; everyone keeps on pointing at Russia-Germany pact that simply logically followed from this rejection.
And that's how the bottom line is skewed, in order to serve the propaganda purpose.
No one wants to remember the Poland-German cooperation and Polish participation in partition of Czechoslovakia as well, before Poland fell as a victim of partition itself.
With other words, some people like only to pick and choose the facts that support their own version of events; they ignore the rest of facts, that do not support their outlook.
I didn't know my grandparents. They were KILLED by Stalin.
I didn't know my any of my family members (save one) on either side of the family. They were KILLED by Stalin.
My father was an orphan at 10 due to Stalin. My mother last saw her family at age 17. They were held as SLAVES by the Germans for four years.
I was born in Latin America, simply because Stalin KILLED all the slaves that were being held by Germany and returned to the Soviet Union.
The New York Times knew about the Holodomer and refused to report on it. They could have stopped it, by simply printing it their newspaper. They refused to publish the truth and 10 million people were KILLED by Stalin.
Did you have grandparents that you knew?? Did you have extended family members that were an important part of your life.
Stalin KILLED that for me.
You are a person without MORALS.
You are exactly the type of person that allowed Stalin to flourish and KILL millions of people.
The part about the New York Times being able to stop the Holdomor makes no sense at all. How exactly would a publication be able to prevent an event from happening? At best, it would have raised awareness about the event.
I didn't know my grandparents. They were KILLED by Stalin.
I didn't know my any of my family members (save one) on either side of the family. They were KILLED by Stalin.
My father was an orphan at 10 due to Stalin. My mother last saw her family at age 17. They were held as SLAVES by the Germans for four years.
I was born in Latin America, simply because Stalin KILLED all the slaves that were being held by Germany and returned to the Soviet Union.
The New York Times knew about the Holodomer and refused to report on it. They could have stopped it, by simply printing it their newspaper. They refused to publish the truth and 10 million people were KILLED by Stalin.
Did you have grandparents that you knew?? Did you have extended family members that were an important part of your life.
Stalin KILLED that for me.
You are a person without MORALS.
You are exactly the type of person that allowed Stalin to flourish and KILL millions of people.
I gotta say that I have issues only with ".....Stalin KILLED all the slaves that were being held by Germany and returned to the Soviet Union." statement. I think that applied to a lot of people in the beginning, but it did stop.
If one were to add a generation (grand-grandparents instead of grandparents) I would have to join the first and second statements. My parents did not know their grandparents because they had disappeared in the gulags before their birth.
In terms of numbers that started this thread, I honestly think they are understated. The official death numbers frequently had been massaged and a lot of supporting documentation had been destroyed. On the other hand, there are some suspicions about the actual versus official staffing levels in the military.
We do also know that there were people believing that Soviet census figures were inflated and the existing infrastructure could not support such population numbers, and they seemingly mostly underestimated the actual infrastructure usage.
I think, for example, that the number of deaths attributed to blockade of Leningrad is understated by at least 30%. Some researchers think it is almost double the generally accepted figures.
As to assigning blame, I have to say there's too much to single anyone. Soviet losses can be attributed to Stalin initiating the purges in the military, but considering what had happened in the Summer of 1941, who can be sure how much of what had happened was due to incompetence of the military commanders, how much due to negligence or actual treason, and how much better the results would have been without the purges?
I was watching an animation that said 20 Million (!!) soviet soldiers were killed by the Nazis, and that millions more perished.
They saying fifteen million died because of Holodomor and another 10 million during Stalin's purges and another 10 million during the gulags.
And historians feed into this BS history, having no comprehension what a million deaths even mean.
The vast majority of the numbers are false, the most realistic estimates say in total between 1932-1945 some fifteen million Russians died.
I am speaking about all deaths, civilians, war crimes, genocide, famines, etc.
Cut the BS that 50 million were killed over the span of ten-twenty years, those numbers are ludicrous. A panel of historians deserve to put on trial for allowing this myth to continue.
Get a grip people.
Here are some numbers you can refute (none are in cartoon form).
I was watching an animation that said 20 Million (!!) soviet soldiers were killed by the Nazis, and that millions more perished.
They saying fifteen million died because of Holodomor and another 10 million during Stalin's purges and another 10 million during the gulags.
And historians feed into this BS history, having no comprehension what a million deaths even mean.
The vast majority of the numbers are false, the most realistic estimates say in total between 1932-1945 some fifteen million Russians died.
I am speaking about all deaths, civilians, war crimes, genocide, famines, etc.
Cut the BS that 50 million were killed over the span of ten-twenty years, those numbers are ludicrous. A panel of historians deserve to put on trial for allowing this myth to continue.
Get a grip people.
Many if those numbers are rough and approximate
Take holocaust . To kill 6 million prople in 12 years you need to kill 1350 people a day. Soviet casualty is 6 times than that , so 10000 a day. Germany being the perpetratir had way less deaths than that.
But however soviets bore the brunt andhad maximun damage but will not have the credit for thst. Anytime. Repugs will use that number as usual to denounce communism
Seizing eastern Poland was brilliant because it kept the oil deposits out of German hands.
The USSR tried to form an alliance with Britain and France but they rejected him so he made a deal with Germany to keep half of Poland from their grasp while buying time to prepare for war.
He had no way of knowing the western front would fall so fast.
More Soviet propaganda making a comeback. The Nazi Soviet pact wasn't because "we had to" by the Soviets. Victim blaming in 2021 isn't going to win many friends in Europe either. They ultimately kept all of the territories seized during this invasion in 1939 (from 6 countries). You can't tell me that the Soviet union needed those territories to protect itself from Germany after the war. No, instead it was a convenient excuse to do what the Soviets loved doing the most: killing and taking lands.
They got their payback in 1941 though.
And here is dear Stalin to the rescue. Send human waves at the German lines and let millions die. Easier to run the country with fewer people anyway and while selling resources abroad means you have to feed less slaves at home.
I gotta say that I have issues only with ".....Stalin KILLED all the slaves that were being held by Germany and returned to the Soviet Union." statement. I think that applied to a lot of people in the beginning, but it did stop.
Yesterday I looked up what exactly happened to those people, that were taken to Germany for forced labor, ( they were mostly Ukrainians by the way, and a lot of them were very young, practically teenagers) - they were looked down upon when they returned back to S.U. They were not "killed" however - they were mostly exiled to the Kazakhstan/Eastern part of the Soviet Union. ( Siberia/Russian Far East are full of Ukrainians by the way; they might consider themselves Russians by now - I don't know; only their last names indicate their parents origin.)
All repatriated from Germany Soviet citizens had to go through the "filtration" camps. It's the POWs/military ppl that were executed, if suspected of treason and collaboration with Germans, not the labor force.
Quote:
In terms of numbers that started this thread, I honestly think they are understated. The official death numbers frequently had been massaged and a lot of supporting documentation had been destroyed. On the other hand, there are some suspicions about the actual versus official staffing levels in the military. We do also know that there were people believing that Soviet census figures were inflated and the existing infrastructure could not support such population numbers, and they seemingly mostly underestimated the actual infrastructure usage.
What "existing infrastructure"?
Quote:
I think, for example, that the number of deaths attributed to blockade of Leningrad is understated by at least 30%. Some researchers think it is almost double the generally accepted figures.
The estimate of those who died during the siege of Leningrad alone is over 1 million people.
I am not sure how this can be underestimated.
But it can't be *overestimated* either.
I think for everyone that doesn't understand why the human losses in Russia during the WWII were so high, should look into this specific episode alone; it should explain what this war was all about, when it comes to civilian population in particular.
As to assigning blame, I have to say there's too much to single anyone. Soviet losses can be attributed to Stalin initiating the purges in the military, but considering what had happened in the Summer of 1941, who can be sure how much of what had happened was due to incompetence of the military commanders, how much due to negligence or actual treason, and how much better the results would have been without the purges?
Again - I am not sure what "treason" we can talk about here.
The first initial blow of Barbarossa was simply so overwhelming, so powerful, ( not to mention unexpected,) that Soviet troops had little chance to react adequately.
And if to keep in mind that the whole attack was designed to finish the Russians off as a nation, it's no surprise that three million soldiers of those that were captured during the first few months of the war, were exterminated by Germans from the get-go. (They didn't even have to work them to death for the most part; the exposure, the famine and disease made their job.)
More Soviet propaganda making a comeback. The Nazi Soviet pact wasn't because "we had to" by the Soviets. Victim blaming in 2021 isn't going to win many friends in Europe either. They ultimately kept all of the territories seized during this invasion in 1939 (from 6 countries). You can't tell me that the Soviet union needed those territories to protect itself from Germany after the war. No, instead it was a convenient excuse to do what the Soviets loved doing the most: killing and taking lands.
They got their payback in 1941 though.
And here is dear Stalin to the rescue. Send human waves at the German lines and let millions die. Easier to run the country with fewer people anyway and while selling resources abroad means you have to feed less slaves at home.
More propaganda of yours DKM, as usual.
All the territories of those countries that Soviets kept as satellites after the WWII, were the countries that were Hitler's allies on the verge of Barbarossa.
And yes, keeping the "buffer zone" was Russia's defense strategy from the middle ages on.
Let me remind it again and again; the existence of those buffer zones is the only time when Russian state felt secure.
As for "winning friends in Europe" - with *friends* like this, who needs the enemies, as the proverb has it.))
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