Did the U.S really have much faith the Bay of Pigs invasion would succeed?

[ScoPro]

Jeffrey Epstein would agree.

[Cuero]

Originally Posted by SanJuanStar

Do you understand that even though Cuban's government was 2 years old but it became an allied to a SUPER POWER NUCLEAR COUNTRY. That means any overthrow by invasion to that country it would have pulled in the Soviet Union in and risk NATO and the European Alliance which the Red Army was just at their border waiting to mop the floor with them. Do you understand it's a bad risk. You think it's worth taking Cuba at the expense of Europe?

The Soviet Union was not a "Super Power Nuclear Country" at that time. The Soviet's lacked a reliable long-range delivery method for their nuclear weapons. They were vulnerable to a preemptive decapitation strike by SAC. That's why Khrushchev boasted so much, to attempt to conceal his weakness, and why he had no reasonable choice but to back down during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Originally Posted by SanJuanStar

Invading Cuba at the time, was like invading East Germany. You don't think there wouldn't be a counter-reaction by the Soviets? The bucks stops with JFK.

A better analogy would be the Soviets invading a country in Eastern Europe after a pro-western coup. We never did anything about it, just as the Soviets probably wouldn't if we invaded Cuba.

[SanJuanStar]

Originally Posted by Cuero

The Soviet Union was not a "Super Power Nuclear Country" at that time. The Soviet's lacked a reliable long-range delivery method for their nuclear weapons. They were vulnerable to a preemptive decapitation strike by SAC. That's why Khrushchev boasted so much, to attempt to conceal his weakness, and why he had no reasonable choice but to back down during the Cuban Missile Crisis.



A better analogy would be the Soviets invading a country in Eastern Europe after a pro-western coup. We never did anything about it, just as the Soviets probably wouldn't if we invaded Cuba.

The Soviets would have done something about it coming short of WW 3 on that alone but wars escalates and all bets are off later. Wasn't that the policy of both sides during the war?



Kennedy didn't want to use Americans troops directly because that would be an act of war but paying and training mercenaries to make a coup isn't? You are really splitting hairs.



So if China trains, finances and orders Iran mercenaries to land in our beaches and invades the USA to attack our defense at home and to kill the President to overthrow the American government (a coup) that isn't an act of war? The U.S. laws and international laws says otherwise.




Let me put U.S. CODE again (this is the law and not an opinion)




the term “act of war” means any act occurring in the course of— (A) declared war; (B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or (C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin; 18 USC § 2331(4)


(1) the term “international terrorism” means activities that— (A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;

(B) appear to be intended— (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and


(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;






On U.S. LAW alone, JFK violated our own laws but under war, Presidents get a wide latitude (a big one)





The main reasons why the Soviet Union emerged as a Superpower was because of their strong strategic position achieved through military strength and territory gained during WW 2 and their weapons and the Red Army. You saying the Soviet Union weren't a Super Power in 1961 is not true,. Not even close. The Red Army was at the border of NATO and the European Alliance, they would have mop the floor with them if nukes didn't exist.

[yinduffy]

What I haven't seen discussed, is the development of a "shadow Government" where individuals and agencies began acting on their own, distinctly disregarding the elected officials.

The "Bay of Pigs" was an operation developed without legislative sanction and with organizers misleading inquirers.

Kennedy did not become President with a mandate to invade Cuba. He had to be convinced to approve it and he limited our participation. He deeply regretted approving it and came to distrust the motives of the "shadow Govt." Later, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he became even more suspicious of the intelligence agencies. I have read that Kennedy looking at his young children and the world they would grow up in, caused him to shut down the rhetoric of the Missile crisis. (Kruschev had similar fears)
The first call Attorney General Robert Kennedy made after being told his brother was killed was to the head of the CIA when he demanded, "Did your people do this?"

[SanJuanStar]

Originally Posted by yinduffy

What I haven't seen discussed, is the development of a "shadow Government" where individuals and agencies began acting on their own, distinctly disregarding the elected officials.

The "Bay of Pigs" was an operation developed without legislative sanction and with organizers misleading inquirers.

Kennedy did not become President with a mandate to invade Cuba. He had to be convinced to approve it and he limited our participation. He deeply regretted approving it and came to distrust the motives of the "shadow Govt." Later, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, he became even more suspicious of the intelligence agencies. I have read that Kennedy looking at his young children and the world they would grow up in, caused him to shut down the rhetoric of the Missile crisis. (Kruschev had similar fears)
The first call Attorney General Robert Kennedy made after being told his brother was killed was to the head of the CIA when he demanded, "Did your people do this?"

This is Hollywood b.s. and the people who write stuff to sell. How can there be a "shadow government" acting on their own when JFK approved of the invasion and every military action while he was President?

JFK was playing the public like a flute. He is the President of the U.S. with the nuclear codes. The bucks stops with him.

You say: "The "Bay of Pigs" was an operation developed without legislative sanction and with organizers misleading inquirers." well yeah, that's how the U.S. government does their covert operations and how they do business today with the full knowledge and approval of the President. You think the government is going to have an open debate and vote in Congress if Libya and other countries should be overthrown and all their covert operations and how we pay foreign fighters to do our dirty work? You think when We drone other countries should be debated it and voted for in Congress? LOL


by the way, if you wanted legislative sanction on the Bay of Pigs which is an act of war, well you didn't need mercenaries or covert operations. You just declared war on Cuba (for no reason) and take them out with military force but you just have to deal with the consequences around the world. You don't take Cuba at the expense of Europe which the Red Army was at their border waiting to mop the floor with them. That's a bad trade and a move for sure to lose the Cold War or start WW 3.


The rest of your post is laughable and insulting.

I have read that Kennedy looking at his young children and the world they would grow up in, caused him to shut down the rhetoric of the Missile crisis. (Kruschev had similar fears)

Yeah, that's it. The U.S. and the Soviets took out their missiles pointing at each other but kept other missiles in other places because John and Nikita looked in their children's faces and made tactical military policy because of 2 children . Nikita's sons and daughters were adults at the time. I'm sure he ran the Cold War and every tactical operation with the approval of his sons and looking in their eyes.

JFK is the man that raised military spending when he took office and put nukes in Italy and Turkey before the Bay of pigs and ordered the assassination of Castro (4 times) but he saw into the eyes of Junior and Caroline and policy was made? This is the B.S. that people write and make Hollywood movies.


Now I heard it all from this chapter in history.