Vatican II after 60 Years (WWII, war, Roman, influence)

[Manigault]

I can tell you that the conclave was a major influence on my life. However, was it a success? One commentator suggests that the modernization was a success but the results of Vatican II were a failure due to the many who have left the Church. I consider that sort of a 'post hoc' argument (to use some Latin!).

A conservative Catholic wrote:

Even if the council’s changes did not officially alter doctrine, to rewrite and renovate so many prayers and practices inevitably made ordinary Catholics wonder why an authority that suddenly declared itself to have been misguided across so many different fronts could still be trusted to speak on behalf of Jesus Christ himself.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/12/o...n-council.html

That's also kind of beside the point. Core dogma did not change.

[SunGrins]

I am not RC so I don't have any real idea on the details but just the general notion about the changes. I have some devout Catholic friends my age who seem to have accepted it all and seem happy. If devout Catholics left the church due to the Vatican II revisions, where did they go? Did they just stay home? Mainstream denominations saw a major exodus since 1990 and some analysts point to the culture war as the reason people are leaving. Most denominations are now seeing downward trends. One exception was Black churches (the last time I looked). Currently only 47% of Americans are members of a religion (of any kind). That is the lowest ever -- a minority. Vatican II began in 1962, 60 years ago.

[Nearwest]

As an Orthodox Christian, I have been aware for some time that the majority of coverts to Eastern Orthodoxy were reared as either Roman Catholics or Episcopalians. I read on a blog about the Orthodox Church that roughly 25% of Orthodox Christians in the USA are converts.

From my limited contact with some converts, I have learned that one appeal for the former Roman Catholics is that the Orthodox Church has never gone through a Reformation or a Counter Reformation or a Revolution (Second Vatican Council).

There are no issues with modernism in the Orthodox Church, no waffling on moral teachings, no movement for women priests, no liturgical innovation, or no definition of new dogmas. The Orthodox Church remains united.

As Orthodox Christians, we believe that we are practicing 'the faith once delivered to the saints.'

[guidoLaMoto]

A couple points--

Tradition is a major point making RC attractive....By getting away from the Latin Mass, a major part of that tradition disappeared....I mean, like, we should be using, like, the same words Christ used, you know what I mean, dudes?

I doubt anyone left The Church because they rewrote a few ground rules. Religion may well be the opiate of the people, and when people have less pain, they don't need pain meds....A rising standard of living world wide is the reason all organized religions are seeing a decline in membership....My WWII Vet father always said "There are no atheists in any foxhole during a bombardment."

One reason the RC Church has survived 2000 yrs is because it is adaptable to the current conditions. It may well be missing the boat on this contraception & abortion thing and may be the reason for some flight.

Christ's phone number is 8-***-spiri-2-2-0 edit-- I see the Thought Police are on patrol. That *** is supposed to be c--u-m-(Latin-for-with) Those killjoys sure can ruin a good joke.

[Manigault]

Originally Posted by SunGrins

If devout Catholics left the church due to the Vatican II revisions, where did they go?

They complained and stopped contributing.

[joyfulmorning]

I am a convert to Catholicism from atheism way after Vatican II so I can’t speak to what it was like beforehand. Vatican II was called as a Pastoral Council for the Church to examine how they could bring the Gospel to the modern world. No doctrine or beliefs were changed.

If you read the actual DOCUMENTS the council produced they are totally sound and are not a big theological break from anything that had gone before, it was much more HOW the Gospel would be communicated.

However the controversy within the Church comes from how some members of the Church, including theologians, some Bishops, priests and Sisters decided to interpret and implement the changes of the Council. All sorts of innovations were introduced, especially during an experimental period directly after the council from about 1965-1985 that were not in the documents. These were described as being “In the Spirit” of Vatican II and presented as such to congregations who did not realize that these changes weren’t asked for from Rome or the Council at all. So, especially in the West there was rapid change at a pace that many didn’t agree with. It was a time of course when there was social upheaval in society generally.

So there was a readjustment and through examination led by Pope John Paul II and his right hand man Cardinal Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict XVI. During JP II’s Pontificate we had a new Catechism published, which clearly laid out Church teaching which was consistent with 2,000 years of the Magisterium. It quoted the Bible and the Early Church Fathers in great detail. It has been considered a great gift to the Church, as ordinary Catholics now had clear answers, that were universal and which they could compare with what some wayward leaders in the Church were doing.

There has been a swing back to a desire for orthodoxy (small ‘o’) and tradition, so we can be sure we are receiving the full gospel. Younger people in particular are looking for that rock of stability in a rapidly changing world.

What was significant after Vatican II was there was a great lack of Catechisis and Evangelization, which was the OPPOSITE of what the council desired.

There is a saying in the Church that the outcome of a Council can take centuries to be understood. The initial chaos has abated, but there was a collapse of the numbers of practicing Catholics in the West in general (but this was seen in all the historic Christian churches). However the Church is rapidly growing in other parts of the world, especially Africa and Asia and so that might be because these areas are implementing the Documents of a Vatican II more successfully, without the upheaval seen in the West.

I have noticed that those who complain a lot about the Church do that through mediums, and in ways they would not have been able to do without Vatican II! Because Vatican II gave a lot more power and freedom to the laity to exercise their mission. Also some of the Orders have made a successful transition, such as the Dominicans who, at least in the USA are seeing a big increase in Priestly vocations and at least two orders of Dominican Sisters are attracting large numbers of young women, with Postulancy classes of 15-20 every year. The Dominicans charism is preaching (also contemplation, study and community) and their motto VERITAS (Truth) seems to be particularly attractive to young adults in an increasingly subjective and unstable world. The Dominicans are over 800 years old so they have survived (without a splintering or disunity) through the Reformation, French Revolution, Communism etc. and have always been faithful to the Gospel.