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Stalin was going to offer Hitler a deal to give up russian territory and sue for peace. Stalin was about ready to leave Moscow but changed his mind at the last minute. And that's WITH American involvement, recieving all the supplies and weapons needed to turn the tide at the critical moment.
Without American involvement, no mustangs, bombers, code breakers, or Patton's army with tanks fighting on the western front, how could Germany lose ? What about the enigma code, no submarine captured means there's no machine to decipher the code, at least for a while. If Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor and America was not involved on that front either, then Australia, India and the Middle East fall, Japan and Germany link up to secure the oil, rubber and everything they need to defeat England and Russia. Hitler would of lived another year or so and died, then Eichman or someone more moderate would take his place, who knows, maybe even Rommel because the plot against Hitler would not have happened if Germany was winning the war . The nazi party would probably have become less radical after Hitler's death, unless Himmler got control.
Even if America was not involved, they would of planned a massive defence and still have been working on the atomic bomb. The US gets the bomb first in any event, but has troubles down the road with the german space program. Perhaps the US would have copied the soviet way and sent spies into germany to steal the information they needed to catch up.
The weather saved Moscow from falling and becoming another Stalingrad. I don't think you can ignore the weather from having such a big influence on the outcome of that conflict. But without US involvement the war might have lasted another 18 months or 2 years, longer if jet and rocket technology came into full use( which it would have).
Now if it came down to just Germany versus Russia, I say Germany would have gotten as far as the Urals before they decided to stop.
But they would of secured Moscow before winter without american assistance. Had they arrived just a a few weeks earlier, they could have captured Moscow and had a warm place to sit out the winter and continue the campaign in the spring, depends on how much destruction there was to the city before they entered. They could have captured Moscow sooner even with the Americans helping the Russians, had Hitler listened to his generals and not delayed or split his forces.
Had they decided to concentrate on Moscow and save Stalingrad for the next year, without the Americans helping, there would have been more air support and supplies sent in from Germany to tide them over. Not sure what target was better, if Moscow falls it strikes a blow to russian morale, but Stalingrad was closer to the oil that was needed for the german war effort. But trying to take both at the same time in the dead of winter, was a total catastrophe.
What about the enigma code, no submarine captured means there's no machine to decipher the code, at least for a while.
"Polish reconstructions of the Enigma machine and techniques for decrypting ciphers produced on it were presented as a gift by Polish Military Intelligence to their French and British allies in Warsaw on July 26, 1939, just five weeks before the outbreak of World War II." Ultra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomesickAussie
" I don't see how enigma depended on American involvement..
He must have seen the movie U-571, we American's can do anything in the movies, We single handedly whipped the German's and Japan while romancing British women and fighting Aliens, Of course the "Force" was with us..
"Polish reconstructions of the Enigma machine and techniques for decrypting ciphers produced on it were presented as a gift by Polish Military Intelligence to their French and British allies in Warsaw on July 26, 1939, just five weeks before the outbreak of World War II." Ultra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He must have seen the movie U-571, we American's can do anything in the movies, We single handedly whipped the German's and Japan while romancing British women and fighting Aliens, Of course the "Force" was with us..
Actually, John Wayne by himself did most of that.
The Brits look upon the movie U-571 exactly the same way we would look upon a movie about the Royal Navy winning the Battle of Midway.
Mofford seems to think the Germans and Japanese were supermen.
I'm not sure why people think the failure to capture Moscow was somehow key to the German defeat. This just in: The Germans could have captured Moscow and Leningrad and they still would have ultimately lost the war.
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