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Rhett----My God, not the old "victor rights the history" argument. That's nonsense in a nation with free speech. I've hundreds of books of the Civil War and many are written from a pro-southern point of view. And I imagine you're getting your arguments attempting to justify the rebellion from such books.
I've never argued that the Federal government waged war to free the slaves, anyone with any sense knows the Federal government waged war to suppress rebellion.
So called "wages slaves" were free to come and go as they pleased, they weren't PROPERTY. Interesting that you touch on this because I think slavery is the reason so many southerners have a contempt for physical work and those that do it.
I note you try to move the argument from a denial of slavery as the cause of the rebellion to a defense of the rebellion. I've no interest in such an argument as I've engaged in many over the years. Suffice to say I don't hold with human slavery nor with treason and rebellion against The United States. In any event the war was fought upon those issues and decided them. You might as well argue that the descendants of Harold Godwinson, killed at Hastings in 1066, are the rightful monarchs of England.
Last edited by Irishtom29; 08-15-2008 at 08:47 AM..
Funny thing is that the Tariff of Abominations was authored by southern politicians, including Senator John C Calhoun of South Carolina.
I pulled this quote from Wikipedia, which cites Senator Calhoun's description of the how the Tariff was crafted:
Quote:
What that plan was, Calhoun explained very frankly nine years later, in a speech reviewing the events of 1828 and defending the course taken by himself and his Southern fellow members. A high-tariff bill was to be laid before the House. It was to contain not only a high general range of duties, but duties especially high on those raw materials on which New England wanted the duties to be low. It was to satisfy the protective demands of the Western and Middle States, and at the same time to be obnoxious to the New England members. The Jackson men of all shades, the protectionists from the North and the free-traders from the South, were to unite in preventing any amendments; that bill, and no other, was to be voted on. When the final vote came, the Southern men were to turn around and vote against their own measure. The New England men, and the Adams men in general, would be unable to swallow it, and would also vote against it. Combined, they would prevent its passage, even though the Jackson men from the North voted for it. The result expected was that no tariff bill at all would be passed during the session, which was the object of the Southern wing of the opposition. On the other hand, the obloquy of defeating it would be cast on the Adams party, which was the object of the Jacksonians of the North. The tariff bill would be defeated, and yet the Jackson men would be able to parade as the true “friends of domestic industry.
The plan backfired when the New England politicians unexpectedly voted for the bill.
And the Force Act? Are you talking about the Embargo Act of 1807, the Force Bill of 1833 which was requested by President Andrew Jackson, or the Force Acts enacted after the Civil War to protect the voting rights of African Americans by limiting the activities of the Ku Klux Klan?
DC-----Yes, northern and southern societies differed greatly but why? Slavery. Slavery is the reason a free white farmer in Alabama lived in a different world than one in Illinois. Indeed, slavery was the reason many free white southerners settled in Illinois. (Did you know there's a town in Illinois called Tennessee? )
The planter economy and mentality (which effected most whites whether planters or not) and which formed the elite and opinion makers of southern society was based on slavery. Slavery was at the core.
Note that the Articles of Confederation said the Union would be perpetual and the Constitution was to make a more perfect union.
DC-----Yes, northern and southern societies differed greatly but why? Slavery. Slavery is the reason a free white farmer in Alabama lived in a different world than one in Illinois. Indeed, slavery was the reason many free white southerners settled in Illinois. (Did you know there's a town in Illinois called Tennessee? )
The planter economy and mentality (which effected most whites whether planters or not) and which formed the elite and opinion makers of southern society was based on slavery. Slavery was at the core.
Note that the Articles of Confederation said the Union would be perpetual and the Constitution was to make a more perfect union.
Regards
We're just going to have to disagree. Slavery was not the sole reason why the South was so different from the North. The physical differences between the South and North in geography and climate lend themselves to social differences. The states in the South were larger with populations much more widely distributed, this profoundly affects culture. The religious heritage of the North versus the South had an impact. The agrarian mindset versus the industrial mindset should not be dismissed outright, people in more agrarian societies feel deep connections to the land that is hard for urban people to relate to.
I did not know that there was a town in Illinois called Tennessee, but I know a story about a truck driver in Tennessee that was told to go to the Owens Illinois plant (which was across town, 20 minutes away) and the driver drove several hours to Owens, Illinois and then called in for directions to the plant.
I think you do have to agree that it's impossible to us with our modern point of view to every fully understand the reasons why a dirt farmer in Arkansas, or a Louisiana grocer or an Atlanta lawyer would take his rifle and join the Confederate forces. I think each had his own reasons, some of which had little to do with slavery, but I firmly believe that whatever the reasons, a soldier risks his life for his cause, and that commitment merits respect.
->The North piggy-backed on the Southern cotton trade. There's no two ways about it. They benefitted almost as much from slavery indirectly as the South did directly. What does this have to do with anything you ask???<-
->Quite a lot when you break down the economics and realize that the tariffs that the North imposed were strikingly similar to those that Great Britain imposed on the colonists decades earlier.<-
-> When we journey down that road we begin to discover that the WAR was ENTIRELY about economics.<-
Can not find it but before the north invaded the south Mississippi was supporting the federal treasure by some 90 %. The congress was supplying funds to the north to buildup the highways, bridges etc and the southern states were getting squat back from their 'taxes'. When Mississippi stopped supplying all this money the north was going broke.
After the south was conquered Mississippi's biggest expense was taking care of her veterans, mostly those without arms and legs.
by the by: no one has posted the articles of war both sides signed before hostiles began and only the south kept.
Believe it or not, Confederates were as American as the Yankees were. They loved Freedom every bit as much! Banning the flag will not kill the Rebel spirit. Stupid gestures (and suggestions) like this are a clear sign of what is wrong with our country today!
Believe it or not, Confederates were as American as the Yankees were. They loved Freedom every bit as much! Banning the flag will not kill the Rebel spirit. Stupid gestures (and suggestions) like this are a clear sign of what is wrong with our country today!
So called "wages slaves" were free to come and go as they pleased, they weren't PROPERTY. Interesting that you touch on this because I think slavery is the reason so many southerners have a contempt for physical work and those that do it.
Again I see a lack of understanding of a vital point....
A "Wage Slave" is a person who must work for paltry wages to live.... Free to leave??? Au contraire mon frere.... and go where pray tell???
In many instances it was pretty similar to share-cropping in the South after the war where the company would maneuver employees into debt which kept them employed in order to pay off the debt... The South didn't invent that....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom
I note you try to move the argument from a denial of slavery as the cause of the rebellion to a defense of the rebellion. I've no interest in such an argument as I've engaged in many over the years. Suffice to say I don't hold with human slavery nor with treason and rebellion against The United States. In any event the war was fought upon those issues and decided them. You might as well argue that the descendants of Harold Godwinson, killed at Hastings in 1066, are the rightful monarchs of England.
I note you try to frame my argument as a "denial of slavery as the cause of the war...". I'm simply saying it was A cause, not THE cause..
Nice with the whole "treason" line of reasoning...... Not going down THAT road again either as you are well aware of our founding documents as well as the FACT that New England was the first to toss about the idea before the War of 1812.... Heck, even today Vermont talks secession.... Guess that's not "treason" though, eh???
Guess we can stop here because you seem to think I'm giving you a common and tired argument and quite frankly I believe your argument to be equally tiring and stale.
I'll give you one word of advice though. We ALL get information from books. It is nothing short of rude IMO to claim the other side of an argument "Must just be ignorant or reads only one side of the story" in order to get their viewpoint which is what you implied. You are NOT the only one who has done a VAST amount of research on this topic. Just because someone doesn't arrive at the same conclusion as you does not mean they haven't done the same amount of careful research and introspection as yourself... You'd do well to remember that in future discussions...
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whos got the money
