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Not sure, why English is not on the list, as when I did my Romance/Germanic languages, department of English, back at my 1st university, English was considered one of them. Also, if you look at the map in the article, Britain is actually marked as one.
England was part of the Roman Empire but English is clearly a Germanic language. The Britons were a Celtic people. As the Roman Empire disintigrated a number of Germans began settling in Britain; most of these were from the German tribes of the Angles and Saxons. So many of these Anglo-Saxons settled in Britain that it became known as "Angle Land" and as their language began to differ from the German spoken in Germany it became known as "Anglish".
Langue d'oil mainly differentiates from langue d'oc by phonetics, not because "Germanic" influence. Quite absurd. The main difference is that they say oil or oui nowdays, and in langue d'oc they say oc.
France has more than 15 different languages.
I speak French and I understand Occitan.
During Napoleon, most people spoke French, not "langue d'oil" but French.
the lengas d'òc differ significantly from French and are more similar to Spanish, Catalan and Italian than they are to French in many respects, much of which has to do with Germanic and Celtic influences in French that are absent in other Latin languages.
Occitan sounds nothing like French and has a vocabulary that differs in many respects from French. Furthermore, most people didn't speak French in the era of Napoleon, neither in the north nor in the south.
The Gauls were a Celtic people. They weren't Germanic. Just as the Irish and Welsh languages are not Germanic, neither was the Gaul's. They were conquered by Rome and assimilated into the Roman Empire, and their native language was mostly replaced by Latin.
Langue d'oil mainly differentiates from langue d'oc by phonetics, not because "Germanic" influence. Quite absurd. The main difference is that they say oil or oui nowdays, and in langue d'oc they say oc.
France has more than 15 different languages.
I speak French and I understand Occitan.
During Napoleon, most people spoke French, not "langue d'oil" but French.
England was part of the Roman Empire but English is clearly a Germanic language. The Britons were a Celtic people. As the Roman Empire disintigrated a number of Germans began settling in Britain; most of these were from the German tribes of the Angles and Saxons. So many of these Anglo-Saxons settled in Britain that it became known as "Angle Land" and as their language began to differ from the German spoken in Germany it became known as "Anglish".
The Roman authority abandoned Britain by order of Emperor Honorius. Britain was mostly Celtic and Celts in Britain maintined much of their identiy and culture compared to Celts of Spain and Gaul who already Romanized. When the Romans left Britain the Germanic tribe called the Anglo Saxons took whatever power they can.
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Originally Posted by hobbesdj
The Franks never attempted to spread their language among the Gallo-Roman populace. They did quite the opposite and endeavored to become as "Roman" (or what in their case what amounted to Gallo-Roman) as possible. However, in addition to widespread pockets of Celtic speakers in what compromises modern France, there were also large pockets of Germanic speakers. North of Paris in French Flanders, Flemish was the primary language as late as 1914 and in other areas of northern France such as Picardie, Germanic dialects continued to be spoken well into the middle ages. In these areas Germanic speakers settled in large enough numbers that they could form the majority or a large minority. In addition to these areas, there is of course far eastern France (Alsace, Lorraine) where German dialects continue to be spoken to this day.
According to linguist and historian Urban Holmes, Northern France was bilingual for a few centuries after the Frankish conquest. It was the aristocracy especially that continued to hold some proficiency in Frankish and to a lesser extent other Germanic dialects. This was especially true in and around Ile de France (literally Island of Franks) where Paris is situated; Frankish settlement there was heavy. The upper class Germanic speakers speaking Vulgar Latin gave birth to French syntax and the very unique French accent. It formed what would essentially be a Germanic accent over a mostly Latin-based language. The way of speaking was emulated by the socially conscious peasantry and would later become the standard pronunciation of Parisian French. In later centuries Parisian French became the standard and as a result this accent became the standard pronunciation of the French language.
Northern France ceased to be bilingual when Vulgar Latin absorbed Frankish and became the langue d'oil (modern French). The significant Germanic influence set apart the langue d'oil of northern France from the other Latin dialects arising in southern France, Italy, and Spain. It meant that the Vulgar Latin of nothern France would diverge from Latin much earler than in other parts of the former Western Roman Empire, and it also meant that the new language would be inundated with Germanic vocabulary. In the south of France the Germanic presence was minimal and as a result the langue d'oc only has minimal Germanic influence and more closely resembles Italian and Spanish. The Langue d'oil of northern France went on to become what we call "French" today, while the langue 'oc of southern France have became declining regional dialects. amazingly, French only became the language of most "French" people sometime during the late 19th century. Even during the time of Napoleon, less than a quarter of "French" people spoke French.
I have read that people in Gaul might have been speaking French prior to the invasion of the Franks which introducts some German into the Romance language of Gaul. The Celts of Gaul were already speaking accented Vulgar Latin. When the Franks conquered Gaul, the Franks slowly but surely abosorbed into the Gallo/Roman culture. As for modern day French, one has to thank modern day media technology for that. French tv and radio eliminated other regional French dialects. The same happened to Italy which saw other regional dialects of Italian eliminated thanks to radio and tv. This happened during the middle of the 20th century.
Not sure, why English is not on the list, as when I did my Romance/Germanic languages, department of English, back at my 1st university, English was considered one of them. Also, if you look at the map in the article, Britain is actually marked as one.
Also, keep in mind, that for centuries, Latin was official Church language, not just for sermons, but for communication; also, it was "educated person" language. You were not considered educated if you didn't speak Latin.
English is purely a Germanic language. Why does English have Latin and Greek words is due to the Norman invasion of 1066. The Normans are a Viking tribe who settled in Northern France during the period of Viking invasion. The Normans eventually adopted the Gallo-Roman culture. King Harold of England promised William of Normandy that the throne was his, but the King of England occupied the throne. This gave the King of Normandy the right to invade. During the battle of Hastings the King of England was killed and William of Normandy became king. Plenty of Norman aristocrats moved to England which changed the English langague forever which was filtered with plenty of Latin and Greek words which were already common in French. Example in English one can use land, terrain and geography or snake instead of serpent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Six Foot Three
Curious about France as it was founded by the Germanic peoples the Franks so how and when did it shift from their Germanic tongues to the Latin/Romance language of French. Was it the Roman Church in the early years 500's/600's that influenced them to change from the mother tongue? Also the Germanic peoples the Visigoths entered the Frankish state when the Moors invaded Spain in the 700's so we have 2 Germanic peoples living there and yet they spoke a Latin Language.
Along with Spain, Gaul was one of the most important provinces of the Roman Empire. Even some Roman emperors came from Spain and Gaul, like Trajan a Spaniard and Cladius who is from Gaul modern day France. The Celts of Spain and Gaul Romanized adapting language, customs and religion of the Italians. The Celts started to learn and or speak Vulgar Latin which was spoken by Roman Legion. Especially with Roman soldiers taking Celtic women as wives a mix language will take fold on younger generation. The Roman Empire falls and one of the last places the Roman Empire fell was in Gaul which lasted 20 years after the original fall in 476. When Clovis beats the last Roman general in Gaul in 496 AD, Franks assume authority of all of Northern Gaul. Southern Gaul was in the hands of the Visigoths who were also Germanic group. There were not many Franks to begin with and Gallo-Romans out numbered the Franks. Overtime the Franks will absorb into the Gallo-Roman culture. The only thing left of the Franks is their name France the country. The Religion of France Catholicism is Roman as well as their French Language which is derived from Vulgar Latin originally came from Central Italy derived from Latin. If anything France is more Roman than it is German.
Last edited by Bronxguyanese; 05-30-2014 at 02:03 AM..
the lengas d'òc differ significantly from French and are more similar to Spanish, Catalan and Italian than they are to French in many respects, much of which has to do with Germanic and Celtic influences in French that are absent in other Latin languages.
Occitan sounds nothing like French and has a vocabulary that differs in many respects from French. Furthermore, most people didn't speak French in the era of Napoleon, neither in the north nor in the south.
Spanish also has Germanic influences as well due to Visigothic rule prior to the Arab period.
Virtually all Romance languages use Germanic words for some very basic things like the cardinal directions. It has even led some to theorize that we should speak of Latin and Roman language. Latin being the written and oratory language of the upper classes that has been preserved, and Roman being the everyday language of most of the empire. Roman would be seen as coming from Latin, but already affected by these basic Germanic influences that show up in so many Romance languages.
Curious about France as it was founded by the Germanic peoples the Franks so how and when did it shift from their Germanic tongues to the Latin/Romance language of French. Was it the Roman Church in the early years 500's/600's that influenced them to change from the mother tongue? Also the Germanic peoples the Visigoths entered the Frankish state when the Moors invaded Spain in the 700's so we have 2 Germanic peoples living there and yet they spoke a Latin Language.
Benefit of Latin is that it is also a written language in addition to spoken.
The Roman authority abandoned Britain by order of Emperor Honorius. Britain was mostly Celtic and Celts in Britain maintined much of their identiy and culture compared to Celts of Spain and Gaul who already Romanized. When the Romans left Britain the Germanic tribe called the Anglo Saxons took whatever power they can.
I have read that people in Gaul might have been speaking French prior to the invasion of the Franks which introducts some German into the Romance language of Gaul. The Celts of Gaul were already speaking accented Vulgar Latin. When the Franks conquered Gaul, the Franks slowly but surely abosorbed into the Gallo/Roman culture. As for modern day French, one has to thank modern day media technology for that. French tv and radio eliminated other regional French dialects. The same happened to Italy which saw other regional dialects of Italian eliminated thanks to radio and tv. This happened during the middle of the 20th century.
English is purely a Germanic language. Why does English have Latin and Greek words is due to the Norman invasion of 1066. The Normans are a Viking tribe who settled in Northern France during the period of Viking invasion. The Normans eventually adopted the Gallo-Roman culture. King Harold of England promised William of Normandy that the throne was his, but the King of England occupied the throne. This gave the King of Normandy the right to invade. During the battle of Hastings the King of England was killed and William of Normandy became king. Plenty of Norman aristocrats moved to England which changed the English langague forever which was filtered with plenty of Latin and Greek words which were already common in French. Example in English one can use land, terrain and geography or snake instead of serpent.
Along with Spain, Gaul was one of the most important provinces of the Roman Empire. Even some Roman emperors came from Spain and Gaul, like Trajan a Spaniard and Cladius who is from Gaul modern day France. The Celts of Spain and Gaul Romanized adapting language, customs and religion of the Italians. The Celts started to learn and or speak Vulgar Latin which was spoken by Roman Legion. Especially with Roman soldiers taking Celtic women as wives a mix language will take fold on younger generation. The Roman Empire falls and one of the last places the Roman Empire fell was in Gaul which lasted 20 years after the original fall in 476. When Clovis beats the last Roman general in Gaul in 496 AD, Franks assume authority of all of Northern Gaul. Southern Gaul was in the hands of the Visigoths who were also Germanic group. There were not many Franks to begin with and Gallo-Romans out numbered the Franks. Overtime the Franks will absorb into the Gallo-Roman culture. The only thing left of the Franks is their name France the country. The Religion of France Catholicism is Roman as well as their French Language which is derived from Vulgar Latin originally came from Central Italy derived from Latin. If anything France is more Roman than it is German.
Actually after the Romans departed, the Germanic tribes settled next to celtic farmer and farmed. The language they spoke became known as Old English. It retains the positional placement of verbs and other elements still present in modern German, but long gone in English. With a vaccume of power in the seas, the Norse sailed in. The Danes, mainly, took land in the eastern strip of England and into Scotland. Norse and Dane farmers set up shop next to English farmers. The languages they spoke were so similar they could understand each other, but had two sets of ways of using the words. In the end, their languages merged and became Middle English. The dynamic use of words and the lack of positional rules which makes English so versatile came about then. The Normans, who origionally were Norse but had adopted Romanized ways, brought their own language and made English illegal to use in offical discourse. So in time French words came into the language. But the Normans did not borrow back. Modern english is a fusion of many sources, while French has fewer.
That England was invaded and taken and invaded again so many times has to be a facor. Its earliest origons were germanic, but it is not a germanic language as its adapted freely from so many other sources.
Another factor in French culture wasn that Charlemange tried to bring back the knowledge lost and among those things was knowledge of Latin. His short experiment ultimately gave the classical a much greater infuence in language and arts.
The Franks adopted the Latin language of the people they conquered and contributed words to what would become Old French.
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