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Old 12-02-2008, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Road Warrior
2,016 posts, read 5,581,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Well, yeah but, motives are very personal and many times don't make sense in these conditions. What was Mark Chapman's reason for tkilling John Lennon (some strange Lennon fixation), What was John Hinkley's reason for trying to kill Reagan (some strange Jodie Foster thing), what was Squeeky Frommes reason for trying to shot Gerald Ford? (some strange Manson thing).

Oswald was a anti-social phycologically troubled loser that failed in everything in life. He saw himself in some fantasy life, possibly as a marxist savior, although he even failed as being a communist in Russia. He was a loose cannon, living in some sort of psycotic fantasy world. People like that, sadly enough, exist. His reason's for killing Kennedy wouldn't make sense to you or I, it would make sense only to him.
Sure but if I accept your explanation that he was a lunatic, then your now only speculating as to why Oswald killed Kennedy. The fact is we don't know why.

Justice is the restoration of control and equilibrium (balance). And when you have control, you have power. Power is the ability to make choices and knowledge is true power. People seek Justice and a speedy trial be it because it gives them a sense of control and power. We don't want to be left hanging.

What does this have to do with JFK? Everyone want to know who because then they could put the blame on someone (Oswald) and it eliminates unpredictability and we restore a sense of control back in our lives. Everyone wanted to know who on November 22, 1963 killed JFK. We got the "who", but nobody cares to know the bigger picture as to "why". That "why" is the question which brings up the conspiracy today, "did Oswald act alone or was there a co-conspirator, possibly Ruby?". "And if Ruby, who else?". Thus the question keeps revolving itself and no one sees the bigger picture, it become unpredictable and out of control. The House Select Committee in the 1970s pointed out there might be a conspiracy, then they said the Warren Commission was right, then they say well the Warren Commission was right but they did not address the possibility of a conspiracy. The trade-off of knowing "who" and putting the case to rest is that you may never know "why". It then become a revolving door even until today of 45 years later.
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Old 12-03-2008, 10:30 AM
 
Location: West Virginia
16,667 posts, read 15,660,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Apparantly there is yet another discovery show out there somewhere on the magic bullet (is there anything they don't examine in detail?). I hesitate to quote wikipedia because I just don't trust them at times, but here is their comments on the show:

"Discovery Channel's reenactment of bullet CE399's path
A Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage though a tissue-like substance before striking bone. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close enough to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation."

One of the popular myths (held not by you, but by other misinformed conspiracy theorists) is that the "magic bullet" found on Connely's stretcher was absolutely pristine. It was in relatively good shape at the tip but the butt area was flattened and significantly deformed, indicating it spinned while moving through tissue.

On the other hand, Mr. and Mrs. Connely never agreed with the "magic bullet" theory themeselves, although they agree with all other aspects of the warren report. I guess, as any good Texan shoud, they couldn't just accept that they didn't get their very own bullet shot at them, instead they got a second hand bullet.
I remember that program. It was not nearly as compelling as the newer one we just watched. Whenever the "magic bullet" is discussed, it is important to put it in perspective. There is no plausible evidence to support to claim that the bullet was on Connally's stretcher. Somebody at the hospital handed it to an FBI agent, and that is just about all you can be certain happened. There were other stretchers in the area and a lot of speculation Some analyses postulate that there was more lead left in John Connally than the "magic bullet" had missing from its original mass.

( I've never heard a complaint about being shot with a second-hand bullet before. )
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Old 12-03-2008, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Road Warrior
2,016 posts, read 5,581,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
How can it be revealed after over 40 years when almost everyone even remotely involved in the case is dead? Freedom of Information Act hasn't disclosed any "secret" government papers that may have existed in spite of the conspiracy types going over it with a fine tooth comb, no government official has come up with any kind of death bed confessions, and nowadays mob guys will sell their own mother out to cut a deal to avoid jail, every conspiracy theory has been examined and re-examined (and later debunked). So how can it be revealed?

Are you saying something like aliens are holding Kennedy's brain on a space ship somewhere and will come back in the future to reveal all?
You answered the question with your question once again, "how can it be revealed after 40 years" can be better rather rephrased "why keep it hidden for 40 years", in fact all the files were initially to be sealed to 2023 that is 60 years and not 40 from the date of the incident. And as you stated "everyone is remotely dead", 2023 is a assumption that anyone 30 at the time of assassination surely would have croaked by 2023. The last person to croak on the Warren Commission was rather President Ford in 2007. And "no government official has come up with any death bed confession", rather in 2007 E. Howard Hunt a CIA official admitted to his son, on his deathbed of his participation in the assassination in a recording. Hunt was the man who engineered the "Watergate" scandal and was imprisoned for 33 months, while Nixon was pardoned by Ford. Just yesterday more tapes of the Watergate scandal were released. It's not a matter of conspiracy or not, 45 years later there are those that still prefer to be spoonfed by the government and there are still those that believe in alien abductions. The matter is looking at the JFK like any case, collecting all the information from both sides and from past and present, while cross-examining all materials before making a decision, a sound decision that satisfy you, is the truth to you, whether the truth be there was one lone gun man or there was a conspiracy.

Hardball with Chris Matthews Monday through Friday on MSNBC 5 and 7 PM EST - Join the Hardballers- msnbc.com

Last edited by RangerDuke08; 12-03-2008 at 05:22 PM..
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Old 07-14-2009, 04:08 PM
 
10 posts, read 20,996 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexus View Post
Those were ignorant, barbaric times because of the racism practiced by whites from the top down. The mindset among these people (white racists, white segregationalists, white supremists) was worse than anything that we see here today even among radical Islamic fundamentalists. We're talking about a segment of this country that wasn't too far removed from Neanderthal times. These people were not much more advanced from animals. It's no wonder then that during a 5 year period in the 60s, 5 incredible people, advocates for civil rights for black people, extraordinary men of great vision and superior articulation, were assassinated: Medgar Evers in 1963, JFK in 1963, Malcolm X in 1965, RFK in 1968, and the same year Martin Luther King in 1968. Mission accomplished, white racists rejoiced. The character, greatness, and legacy of this country forever tainted as a result.

In hindsight, can one say that during this 5-year period, these killings were isolated and randomly excuted? I say absolutely not considering the level of ignorance among whites concerning civil rights for black people at that time. Such a concentrated and targeted effort could only be instrumented from high places, possibly Hoover influenced. If not by Hoover's action, then by Hoover's inaction. Hoover's inaction and disdain for civil rights allowed others to carry out the murders without fear of FBI interference or inquiry. He turned his back so Evers could get shot in the back possibly by a local faction of a white supremist group that Hoover knew existed. Hoover and the FBI have been greatly criticized for their very shoddy investigation into the assassination of JFK. Shoddy to prevent uncovering of incriminating evidence perhaps, possibly negligence on the part of the FBI? I say absolutely. Same for the other 3 assassinations. Unbelievable. I say Hoover, a physically repulsive man of barbaric proportions looked just like what he was: a racist Neanderthal who misused his position as a projection of his own ignorant biases and as a result, created an environment that made it more likely that these 5 great prominent civil rights advocates could get killed.

It's an incredible disgrace to this country and to mankind that JFK was the victim of such collosal ignorance, ignorance that tragically still exists.
The president's connection with all the civil rights people, and the fact that the civil rights people were all gun murdered is significant. The MO of high power rifle/close in pistol shot by set up situations based on inside info, is strikingly similar. It ties together many diverse elements known to have been connected to the Kennedy's killings, such as a middle eastern man, Sirhan, some Jewish and Italian mafia, Hoover who hated King and was probably not too fond of blacks in general, government people, who were largely WASP, etc.. The suppression of black movements is a commonality that is hard to deny. Johnson however did more for civil rights than Kennedy did, and was more capable of real politik with Congress to get them done. I believe Johnson put out one image and did another at least in that category. Some argue certain blacks put subtle blackmail pressure on him in order to effect this. i.e. we know Mac Wallace really did it, and possibly hinted they were able to pin several other murders on him, which have come to light about 10 years after his death. After all his best buddy, Sol Estes, said that Johnson's right hand man had killed Marshall, the Texas Agri-dirt digger who had 'suicided' by filling his lungs with CO and shooting himself five times with a bolt action rifle. Only in Texas is this possible.

This angle leaves out the political international connection which is also hard to deny. Pointedly the CIA insiders talk very glowingly about Kennedy's co-operation and use of the CIA. However we have a smoking gun here. The Kennedy's were intending to thwart the CIA and had fired some its stars, Dulles and Cabel. Kennedy gave speeches on reigning in the CIA, had started his own intelligence group and against advice, had made forays into areas of international understandings that ran counter to CIA policy. His brinkmanship bluff policy did scare the CIA and that was stated off the record often. More evidence of CIA reservations despite, pious proclamantions by professional and skilled liars like Hunt et al, will be revealed, although because much of this stuff is unknown to the public at present, it will be hard to get out and prove. Many of the people who knew stuff but could not talk, like RFK, Teddy, Jacquie, these insiders, are dead and gone.

**************
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:21 PM
 
27,130 posts, read 15,305,548 times
Reputation: 12066
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix_talons View Post
I killed JFK and framed Oswald for it. Everyone is too preoccupied with conspiracy theories, if not cooking them up, to investigate. That's why they never caught me.


You're confession has been duly noted and forwarded to the proper authorities.
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Dublin, CA
3,807 posts, read 4,274,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Damn, that's alot of books, so I assume you must be believe there was a conspiracy. So tell us, what's your theory? And, this is a question I have to ask any of the Kennedy conspiracy theorists out there - how do you consolidate all the conflicting theories? Each one seems to contradict the other such that, when taken in whole, they make absolutely no sense at all unless you prescribe to one certain conspiracy "path" and dismiss the rest of the theories.
Do I believe there was a conspiracy? Yes. Yes I do. I believe Oswald was the lone gunman. HOWEVER, I also believe Oswald received help in the form of intelligence and information. Hence the conspiracy. I don't believe Oswald, alone, was capable of the planning, logistics, etc of the killing.
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:14 PM
 
1,300 posts, read 959,975 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Oswald did it by himself and for his own screwball reasons. Read "Case Closed".

The simplest explanations are generally the valid ones.


But this statement presents the problem w the "lone gunman" theory.

It is very rarely the case with political assasinations, that it is the act of a lone assasin, driven by his own "screwball' reasons.

Almost every assasination of a head of state that occurs anywhere in the world today and at any time in human history is/has been the product of a conspiracy by some element motivated by more complex political motives.

If indeed JFKs death was the result of a lone nutjob acting alone, it would represent an anomaly
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Old 10-06-2011, 02:18 PM
 
Location: NC
4,100 posts, read 4,515,276 times
Reputation: 1372
conspiracy.

I don't care what you call me, but that's my belief in this instance.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:30 PM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,292,176 times
Reputation: 45726
Quote:
But this statement presents the problem w the "lone gunman" theory.

It is very rarely the case with political assasinations, that it is the act of a lone assasin, driven by his own "screwball' reasons.

Almost every assasination of a head of state that occurs anywhere in the world today and at any time in human history is/has been the product of a conspiracy by some element motivated by more complex political motives.

If indeed JFKs death was the result of a lone nutjob acting alone, it would represent an anomaly
Really? Let's see. Of all American Presidents there have been four assassinated. There was Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, William McKinley, and John F. Kennedy. There was a conspiracy in the Lincoln Assassination. However, its pretty definite there weren't any conspiracies in the assassination of Garfield and McKinley. Garfield was shot by a man named Guiteau who was mental case who had delusions of grandeur. When Garfield didn't appoint him US Consul to Paris he decided it was time for Garfield to die. McKinley was shot by an anarchist named Czologosz who had stalked him for days. The man barely spoke English and no connection was shown between him and anyone else. With Kennedy, I don't think there was a conspiracy, but I don't really know. Your whole point is to somehow prove there was a conspiracy in that case by referring to past history. It doesn't seem to make your case for you very well though.

I'm aware of several attempted assassinations as well. The first attempt on a President's life was made on Andrew Jackson. Jackson was saved when the assassin's guns misfired. The attempted assassin was seen--even at that early time--as being mentally ill and was confined in an insane asylum. There was an attempt of Teddy Roosevelt's life when he was running for President the second time in 1912. This man also was insane and after wounding Roosevelt with a handgun was found not guilty by reason of insanity and confined for the rest of his life in a mental institution. Finally, a man tried to assassinate President-elect Franklin D. Roosevelt while he was in Miami in 1933. His name was Zangara and he was an unemployed bricklayer. Hardly, the type of "professional killer" you'd think fellow conspirators would pick to kill the president. While he didn't succeed he did kill poor Mayor Anton Cermak of Chicago. Again, no conspiracy was ever shown.

Well, that's about it. Except for sole situation of the Abraham Lincoln assassination, I don't think the historical record supports your assertion at all that "political assassinations are the product of conspiracies". On the contrary, what history seems to suggest is that the people who either try to kill the President or whom succeed in doing so are generally mentally ill people with some kind of a personal grudge. Often, the grudge is not against an individual, but against "the world" or against "our system". It makes perfect sense to me because what could one hope to gain by killing the President?

Cite me some examples to the contrary.
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