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Are you saying that Lincoln was wrong to try and prevent secession, but that the Confederate states were right to attempt it?
Absolutely, and it fits in with the intent of the founding fathers. Read Sman's and Rhett's links, Lincoln was paranoid, suspended habius corpus, made false legal arguments to sustain his position, of which the signers of the constitution would never have approved of.
The fathers did not want an oppressive federal government, and expected the states to throw off that power should it become abusive to the state(s). The south was in the right to suceed, Buchanan was right to let them go, without going to war. If johnson was not a little sympathetic to the south, why did he veto all the reconstruction legislation ? What were his motives ?
Are you saying that Lincoln was wrong to try and prevent secession, but that the Confederate states were right to attempt it? (And Andrew Johnson was most definitely NOT a Southern sympathizer; he was a Southerner who sided with the Union--that was the cause of all his problems. Northerners and Southerners alike distrusted him).
I would say it was their RIGHT to break away from a government that didn't serve its people, was oppressive, and didn't give it proper representation...you know, like the colonies did.
Probably not. Lincoln was a POS that directly violated the Constitution. The first U.S. communist as far as I'm concerned but certainly not the last. The states had a right to peacefully seceed. We've been going downhill ever since.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkTwain
Has there ever been a more significant single decision by a President in American history?
So you now admit they had the right? I thought you had been arguing against that.
Anyway, they should have been left alone...just like we should let Puerto Rico do today.
No. Read carefully. There was no existing legal right to secede, nor was there an existing legal prohibition against it. In such cases, only opinions exist. The South had a right to their opinion, and they had a right to try and back that opinion with sufficient force of arms to make it stick. When they failed, the right to secede evaporated, thus it never actually existed.
Think of it on a smaller scale and you are more likely to grasp the distinctions being made. Suppose you and I signed a contract which spelled out our mutual obligations to one another regarding the sale of something. Let us say that you have paid me for the something and due to an unforseen calamity, those somethings get destroyed in the process of shipping them to you. Let us say the contract failed to include any language concerning who is responsible for losses in shipping.
Now....my claim is that once you paid, the property was yours and it was your property, not mine which was destroyed, so it is 100% your loss. You claim that the contract wasn't going to be complete until the goods were in your hands, and since they never arrived, I have to refund your money and I am 100% responsible for the loss.
Since there is no language in the contract which resolves this, how do we resolve this? I have right to try and prevail, don't I? So do you. But if the courts decide against me, then I never had the right to keep your money. If the courts decide in my favor, then you never had a right to collect from me.
See the difference?
In the absense of agreement over a right, then parties have the right to try and establish their legitmacy of claim. Failure to establish it means that the right has never been established and did not ever exist.
In the absence of agreement over a right, then parties have the right to try and establish their legitmacy of claim. Failure to establish it means that the right has never been established and did not ever exist.
I agree with the first part of this statement, but I'm not sure about the second. Failure to establish a claim means just that; it was never formally settled. Doesn't necessarily mean that it never existed.
In the case of the Confederacy, the fact that it failed in its attempt at secession means just that, and nothing more. There could conceivably be attempts at secession by states and/or regions even today. The end result would probably be the same--but we wouldn't know for sure unless it happened.
Does anyone else hope the south and mountain west will rise again to defeat the yankee limosine liberal industrialists and the left coast? I've been an major supporter of the Texas Secessionist movement. I did alot of campaigning for Larry Kilgore.
I hope the South does,at any rate. But this is an old thread and Idon't really have the time nor desre to get back into it, there are too many more important personal issues I have to deal with than re-fight this one
Secession was not treason Lincoln was a tyrant who pretty much admitted he deliberately provoked the confederacy into firing on Ft. Sumpter in order to justify an invasion of the Southern States. So with that sentiment expressed I will leave it to the rest of you to continue this dead debate ifyou like;I am no longera part of it except to add that Ft. Sumpter was an armed installation in Confederate territorial waters, manned by soldiers of a foriegn nation who had hostile intentions toward the CSA. Its presence could no more be permanently permitted than could that of English warships in the Boston Harbor during the American Revolution. Outta here for good and all! God Bless the South!
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