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I have no desire to steal anyone's credit from WWII- I noticed nobody mentioned the Canadian and Indian contributions, let alone Australia, New Zealand and others.
The USSR was a major player and suffered unspeakable destruction. No doubt. But...Stalin had purged his officer corps, had collaborated with Hitler and vitually ignored the Wehrmacht as it began operations against him. Russia lost millions because they were unprepared and in some ways, their own worst enemy. Stalin was about as effective as a military strategist as he was a humanitarian. He evern imprisoned or executed Russian POWs. As if being caught meant treason!
They fought only Germany, not Japan (yea ok, for a few days). And they fought in their own area. They did not have to move entire armies to North Africa or all over the Pacific or other regions of the globe (my grandfather hunted U-Boats out of Brazil).
So yes, the Russians deserve their share of the prize (were they ever denied?). But the notion that they were the decisive force in the Third Reich's demise is laughable, dishonest and just a bit pathetic.
I would have to go with the Soviet Union
They were up against the bulk the german fighting force (some 152 divisions)
Some of the toughest Waffen SS divisions ...like the infamous 3rd SS Division "Totenkopf" (Dead's Head)
On the other hand, on the western front, the Allies had to deal the fanatical "Hitler Youth" Waffen SS division stationed in northern France
US and Britain contributed alot to the effort as well
particularly those almost non stop bombing raids ...
the British at night ....the US by day
The Goring's Luftwaffe soon became a non-factor.
The Allies air supremacy severly crippled german forces ability to mobilize
The US was a munitions powerhouse churning out military planes, tanks, etc .... some 49,000 Sherman tanks were produced
However, the Soviet Union quickly relocated their factories east of the Ural Mountains
they built an impressive 41,000 T-34 tanks
Germany could not even come close to that amount of production might
In many ways Hitler actually did himself in ...when they were on the offence ...the Blitzkrieg strategies developed by Guderian worked like charm, however went strategic retreat would be best, Hitler went against the advice of his generals and dictated a policy of defending every square inch of ground and even as late as Dec. 1944 his ground forces were still going on the offence, namely the infamous Battle of the Bulge
Another poster mentioned that Hitler should not have invaded Russia ....invasion was always in the plans from day one, Hitler outlined in his book Mein Kampf ...about germany needing living space and that area being the "breadbasket" of Europe would feed the 3rd Reich
Last edited by LRUA; 11-11-2008 at 10:59 AM..
Reason: correction
But I think we can be thankful that Germany was just too small and the world was too big.
Good point-while his stupidity helped us, Germany just didn't have the population or the industrial capacity to fight a world war. Not saying they didn't maximize efficiency-Germany in WWII is a great (if negative) example of what a country can do if everyone pulls together.
I just wonder how it would have been stabilized if the US didn't involve in the war and Russians had to fight in two fronts - with Germans in Europe and with Japanese in Far East..
japanese threat to Soviet Union. is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY overestimated. Japan had a world class navy, but comparing to Germany and Soviet Union, Japanese army was a joke. The idea of attacking Soviet Union did occur to them, they did use their best troops to instigate trouble against Soviet Union in 1939, the result was they got their ass kicked into a piece of sh*t. That's one of the reasons the "strike north" faction in Japanese military lost its power and Japan almost rushed to Soviet Union to sign a non-aggression treaty. Japan had zero chance against Soviet Union in a land war, with or without Germany on the other side, not to mention the fact, a fact plain to japanese and soviet union alike, that there was not any mentionable spoils worthy of Japan starting a war on the far east side of Soviet Union, no population, no exploitable natural resources, nothing, all of Soviet Union reachable by japan was covered in deep snow and protected by lack of roads/rails and freezing temperatures. Japanese themselves debated the virtue of going to war with Soviet Union, their conclusion was there was no tangible benefit to Japan even assuming Soviet Union did not resist and Japan could occupy large swath of Siberia. Indeed, let's say Japan attacked and Soviet Union was defeated or simply withdrawn and gave up their land, then what? Japan would soon outrun its supply line, coupled with freezing weather and little usable road, all japan got was a parcel of frozen land nothing nothing on it, all Soviet Union lost was a parcel of frozen land with nothing on it that could be taken back as soon as Soviet Union defeated Germany. Not to mention Soviet Union ALWAYS, even during the darkest times in its war with Germany, maintained 1 millions plus troops in far east that could defeat any attack by japan's army that barely reached WWI level of fighting capabilities.
japanese threat to Soviet Union. is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY overestimated. Japan had a world class navy, but comparing to Germany and Soviet Union, Japanese army was a joke. The idea of attacking Soviet Union did occur to them, they did use their best troops to instigate trouble against Soviet Union in 1939, the result was they got their ass kicked into a piece of sh*t. That's one of the reasons the "strike north" faction in Japanese military lost its power and Japan almost rushed to Soviet Union to sign a non-aggression treaty. Japan had zero chance against Soviet Union in a land war, with or without Germany on the other side, not to mention the fact, a fact plain to japanese and soviet union alike, that there was not any mentionable spoils worthy of Japan starting a war on the far east side of Soviet Union, no population, no exploitable natural resources, nothing, all of Soviet Union reachable by japan was covered in deep snow and protected by lack of roads/rails and freezing temperatures. Japanese themselves debated the virtue of going to war with Soviet Union, their conclusion was there was no tangible benefit to Japan even assuming Soviet Union did not resist and Japan could occupy large swath of Siberia. Indeed, let's say Japan attacked and Soviet Union was defeated or simply withdrawn and gave up their land, then what? Japan would soon outrun its supply line, coupled with freezing weather and little usable road, all japan got was a parcel of frozen land nothing nothing on it, all Soviet Union lost was a parcel of frozen land with nothing on it that could be taken back as soon as Soviet Union defeated Germany. Not to mention Soviet Union ALWAYS, even during the darkest times in its war with Germany, maintained 1 millions plus troops in far east that could defeat any attack by japan's army that barely reached WWI level of fighting capabilities.
That's fine and dandy but Japan was a huge threat to all other countries around the Pacific. If not for the U.S., no one would have stopped them. Russia wouldn't have bothered. The point is when you look at WWII as a whole you can't say that the U.S. had a lesser role than the Soviet Union-no matter how you spin it.
P.S. That last statement doesn't really add to your credibility.
The point is when you look at WWII as a whole you can't say that the U.S. had a lesser role than the Soviet Union-no matter how you spin it.
That might be a point in a discussion which asked which nation was most critical to the victory in WW II? However, if you check the thread title, you'll see that you are in the wrong discussion with that particular point.
One huge factor in Nazi Germany's collapse were the Allied air forces blowing up things like petroleum distillation plants, railroad switching/marshaling yards, bridges over the Rhine, etc.
The Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht was rendered quite useless if their planes and tanks were immobilized.
Rule of thumb in warfare is controlling the air-----------both physically and communications.
Besides the Soviets, there is another Slav nation that should get some credit for helping derail the Nazis. Serbian- dominated Yugoslavia. Most of the Balkan nations like Hungary, Romaina and Bulgaria were allied with Nazi Germany. The Balkans were given to Italy as a sphere of influence. When Mussolini tried to occupy Greece and Yugoslavia. His troops were beaten back and Germany fearing British moves from its bases in the Mediterrean into Greece and the soft underbelly of Europe decided to occupy Greece. Germany had to go through Yugoslavia and issued a ultimatium to the Yugoslavs. They refused and Germany invaded Yugoslavia in the spring of 1941. Like Russia The Serbs fought first a fixed piece war then a partisan war tieing up nearly 700,000 German troops and delaying Operation Barbarossa (The invasian of the Soviet Union) from March to June 1941. History might have been very different if the Wehrmacht had had several more good months of weather and those 700,000 troops hadn't been tied up in Yugoslavia but had been free to join the lines at Leningrad or Moscow.
Besides the Soviets, there is another Slav nation that should get some credit for helping derail the Nazis. Serbian- dominated Yugoslavia. Most of the Balkan nations like Hungary, Romaina and Bulgaria were allied with Nazi Germany. The Balkans were given to Italy as a sphere of influence. When Mussolini tried to occupy Greece and Yugoslavia. His troops were beaten back and Germany fearing British moves from its bases in the Mediterrean into Greece and the soft underbelly of Europe decided to occupy Greece. Germany had to go through Yugoslavia and issued a ultimatium to the Yugoslavs. They refused and Germany invaded Yugoslavia in the spring of 1941. Like Russia The Serbs fought first a fixed piece war then a partisan war tieing up nearly 700,000 German troops and delaying Operation Barbarossa (The invasian of the Soviet Union) from March to June 1941. History might have been very different if the Wehrmacht had had several more good months of weather and those 700,000 troops hadn't been tied up in Yugoslavia but had been free to join the lines at Leningrad or Moscow.
I read about Yugoslavia as well.............although, the manpower losses in that nation were surprisingly low for the Wehrmacht---------which amazed me.
As for the Italians; unlike the Nazi Germans............they had little stomach for fighting over stuff that did not appeal to them as individuals.
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