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Old 03-12-2008, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Boise
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After studying up on Otto von Bismark, I think he might just be the greatest leader in history. Maybe not the most ethical always, but the man was a genious when it came to secret alliances and keeping peace, after the initial wars of German Unification. He almost single handedly created one of the strongest nations and at some points the strongest nation on Earth.

No wonder they named a city after this guy.
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:41 PM
 
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Yeah, but it's in the Dakotas.
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:02 AM
 
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Bismarck also layed the seeds of the modern social-welfare state.

I used to live near Bismarckplatz in Heidelberg. The Iron Chancellor has things named after him everywhere in Germany, not just North Dakota.
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by JustinFromBoise View Post
No wonder they named a city after this guy.
As well as a mammoth battleship that currently resides on the bottom of the North Atlantic...
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:21 AM
 
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Well, yes and no. He did forge the modern German state. But at the same time, the same forces he unleashed to forge the country also caused the two great catastrophes of the 20th Century: World Wars I and II.

Yes, I realize that Kaiser Wilhelm dismissed Bismarck long before the catastrophe of 1914, but the relentless militarism he preferred as his instrument of statecraft had taken on a momentum of its own, making it his legacy.
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Old 03-13-2008, 09:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Well, yes and no. He did forge the modern German state. But at the same time, the same forces he unleashed to forge the country also caused the two great catastrophes of the 20th Century: World Wars I and II.

Yes, I realize that Kaiser Wilhelm dismissed Bismarck long before the catastrophe of 1914, but the relentless militarism he preferred as his instrument of statecraft had taken on a momentum of its own, making it his legacy.

Well now, hold on. You can hardly blame the Germans for WWI. The entire continent was a powder keg and anything, including an assassination in Sarajevo, could have set it off.

As for WWII, perhaps there is a bit more of a case. However, the Iron Chancellor probably would not have approved of a nihilistic doctrine such as National Socialism.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Well now, hold on. You can hardly blame the Germans for WWI. The entire continent was a powder keg and anything, including an assassination in Sarajevo, could have set it off.

As for WWII, perhaps there is a bit more of a case. However, the Iron Chancellor probably would not have approved of a nihilistic doctrine such as National Socialism.
A good point. However, I would offer that Bismarck's aggressive foreign policies created the situation that fostered the web of alliances in the first place. After all, the British and the French were forced to team up at the beginning of the 20th Century to act as a balance to Germany--an unnatural geopolitical alliance at the time.

What's more, Bismarck had instigated war with Austria, Denmark, and France in short succession during the 1860s and 1870s. Although a reluctant colonialist, Bismarck did join in the Scramble for Africa. So it is understandable that the other foreign powers began viewing the growing German state with alarm, for military force was often the first option the nascent German state pursued, not the last.

I hope I didn't imply that Bismarck was personally responsible for World War I. What I will state is that Bismarck developed a foreign policy stance that relied heavily on militarism, so that later German provocations such as their efforts in Morocco or the wholly unnecessary buildup of the German North Seas Fleet were seen as logical and consistent extensions of German Grand Strategy authored by Bismarck, not deviations from it.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:28 AM
 
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A good point. However, I would offer that Bismarck's aggressive foreign policies created the situation that fostered the web of alliances in the first place. After all, the British and the French were forced to team up at the beginning of the 20th Century to act as a balance to Germany--an unnatural geopolitical alliance at the time.

What's more, Bismarck had instigated war with Austria, Denmark, and France in short succession during the 1860s and 1870s. Although a reluctant colonialist, Bismarck did join in the Scramble for Africa. So it is understandable that the other foreign powers began viewing the growing German state with alarm, for military force was often the first option the nascent German state pursued, not the last.
Sure, but Bismarck's motivation was to unite German speakers under one roof rather than territorial domination for the sake of it.

But yes, he was a classic military man and a pretty good one at that.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:35 AM
 
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Sure, but Bismarck's motivation was to unite German speakers under one roof rather than territorial domination for the sake of it.

But yes, he was a classic military man and a pretty good one at that.
Yup. Hence my original thought that he had a mixed legacy.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:47 AM
 
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Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Yup. Hence my original thought that he had a mixed legacy.
Indeed, but a lot of people do- DW Griffith, LBJ, and Douglas MacArthur are three that come.

You cannot have an ambitious agenda like Bismarck's without a some black marks.
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