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Old 12-08-2008, 07:33 AM
 
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That's him General Blaskowitz .......as i appreciate the great presentation about him Tony T . You have a great way of explaining history that's enjoyable and again great info.

Question about the Commander in Chief, West position ?? Did Hitler always have that position or just in 1944 when it looked eminent that the allies would invade western europe. Did Hitler also have a Commander in Chief, East during the entire war campaign ....although i thought Hitler personally assumed that position do to the russian campaign. Lastly did these commanders report to the Army Chief of Staff or to Hitler directly??

Last edited by Six Foot Three; 12-08-2008 at 07:44 AM.. Reason: Spell check
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Old 12-08-2008, 04:49 PM
 
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Prior to the war starting, the command structure of the German armed forces was such: you had the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht or Wehrmacht High Command (OKW), and the Oberkommando des Heeres or Army High Command (OKH). Below that you had commands of the specific military branches: army, navy, air force. In the beginning, OKW served as little more then the place where whatever operational ideas that Hitler had were turned into actual military orders. OKW had no control over the high commands of the army, navy, and air force. Operational control was exercised by the OKH. However, after 1941, more and more command and control of military units was taken on by the OKW, more specifically by the Commander in Chief - West. By 1942, OKW (through the C in C - West) had command of all Western Front forces, while command of all Eastern Front forces fell to the OKH.

The position of Commander in Chief - West, came into being in October 1940 after the occupation of France, and remained in existence until the end of the war. Field Marshal von Runstedt was the first Commander in Chief - West, and Field Marshal Albert Kesselring was the last. Oddly enough, von Runstedt also served as the first Commander in Chief - East, and was succeeded by General Blaskowitz. The title of Commander in Chief - East, appears to have been eliminated just after the occupation of Poland. When Adolf Hitler named himself Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces and also head of the OKH in 1941, he became the de facto Commander in Chief - East.

The Chief of the OKW was Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel and the Chief of Operations, OKW, was General Alfred Jodl. In theory, Keitel and Jodl were in overall charge, but since each branch of the military had their own high commands, Keitel and Jodl didn't exercise direct control over what the different services did. They were nothing more then Hitler's mouthpieces, transmitting his orders on to the various high commands and then down to the troops in the field. So while, for example, Field Marshal von Runstedt was subordinate to and took orders from Keitel, he was really answering directly to Hitler. The same went for the Chiefs of the General Staff. As part of the OKH, their sole responsibility was to plan out military operations at Hitler's behest, not direct them. In fact, as the war continued, OKH and the General Staff became increasingly less important, especially once Hitler took control of the army and began to plan more operations himself.

So in spite of the various titles people held and the command structures that were in place, the armed forces of Germany took their orders from one person: Adolf Hitler.

Last edited by TonyT; 12-08-2008 at 05:15 PM..
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:00 PM
 
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O.K. as i now know the difference between the OKW and OKH .

Part 5 of the show featured the end of the Reich as the Russians were bearing down on them and it featured Hitler's last 2 Generals who were General Schorner and General Model who had the impossible task of defending Berlin which was interesting as i had not heard of them much thru out the war until the ending of it.
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:12 AM
 
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Both Walter Model and Ferdinand Schorner are interesting in that they were in the rare minority of generals that Hitler actually liked and respected.

By all accounts, Model was in fact Hitler's favorite general. This was in large part due to Model being of lower middle class origin and from a non-military family. Hitler deeply distrusted the professional, old school military men that dominated the German Army, so to him Model was a person he could see eye to eye with. Model was blunt in speech, sometimes to the point of being crude, but his willingness to say what was on his mind was a quality that Hitler admired. General Model was one of the few that would openly stand up and challenge some of the tactical decisions that Hitler was making. In one instance when Hitler interfered in one of Model's operational plans, Model confronted Hitler face to face about it. When persuasion and logic failed to sway Hitler, Model flatly said "Mein Fuhrer, who commands Ninth Army, you or I?" In the end, Model won the argument and got what he wanted. Few German generals had the freedom of action that Model had, and none were able to disregard and ignore orders as he did and not suffer any consequences for doing so. Quite the opposite really, seeing as Model not only became the youngest field marshal in the Wehrmacht but went from colonel to field marshal in just six years time.

The key to his success was that, while not particularly good on the offensive, he planned and executed brilliant defensive strategies. That's why time after time, Hitler turned to Model to shore up the ever increasing number of crumbling fronts in the East. It was his ability to salvage the seemingly unsalvageable that earned him the nickname "The Fuhrer's Fireman" and why Hitler referred to Model as "my best field marshal" and also "the saviour of the Eastern Front". And that was how he was viewed until almost the very end of the war. Model's fall from favor began with his failure to achieve his objectives during the Ardennes offensive. Finally, the decision he made to defy Hitler and not hold the Ruhr as ordered and to dissolve his Army Group B rather then surrender it, led to Model and his troops being branded as traitors. When he addressed his staff before he decided on dissolution of the army group, Model said "Has everything been done to justify our actions in the light of history? What can there be left for a commander in defeat? In antiquity he took poison." When Model committed suicide on April 24, 1945, the act was motivated not only by his failures but also due to finding out that the Soviet Union had indicted him for war crimes for actions that he had taken in Latvia.

Ferdinand Schorner's strategic strengths were a bit more balanced then Model's but Schorner was also exceptionally good on the defensive side of things. Schorner's speciality was mountain troops, which he commanded in both Poland, the Balkans, and finally Finland. He was given command of a Panzer Corps on the Eastern Front, where he served from November 1943 to January 1944. While heading up Army Group South Ukraine in May 1944, he was able to convince Hitler to abandon Sevastapol and led a successful defensive withdrawal which stabilized that portion of the Eastern Front.

Remembering how well Schorner had performed, Hitler decided that Schorner was perfect to take charge of Army Group Centre. Schorner was made a field marshal and tasked with holding a line against the approaching Russians at the Neisse River and also retaining control of the city of Prague. Hitler mistakenly believed that the final assault on Germany and Berlin would come from this direction rather then through Poland and across the Oder River. Hitler went so far as to strip units and armor from Army Group Vistula and shifted them to Schorner's Army Group Centre. This, plus Schorner's leadership is why Army Group Centre held up so well against the massive Russian attack. So where others failed, Schorner succeeded and his reward appears to have been being named Commander in Chief of the German Army, a post left vacant by Hitler's suicide. Army Group Centre continued to fight and hold Prague for a full three days after the formal surrender of all German forces to the Allies on May 8, 1945.

Schorner abandoned his command at some point after May 8 and flew to Austria where he was arrested by the U. S. Army. He was turned over to the Soviets who had been so impressed by his fight against them that they offered to make him a general in the new East German Army if he would convert to communism. Schorner refused and was placed in a prisoner of war camp where he remained from 1945 to 1955. Upon his release, the Soviets attempted to force him to stay in East Germany but he managed to cross over into West Germany. Presumably due to instigation on the part of East German government agents, West German media outlets began publishing reports of Schorner's wartime activities. A formal investigation was launched by the West German government into Schorner. They reviewed three instances where Schorner had ordered the court martial and execution of men under his command, and decided to charge him with manslaughter. He was convicted and spent four and half years in prison. He was released in 1963 and died in Munich ten years later.

Once again, I wasn't able to see the show so if the information I provided about Model and Schorner is redundant, my apologies.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:18 AM
 
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Tony........did you study about what Hitler thought of the Kaiser Wilhelm II and the General Staff Hindenburg and Ludendorff actions in WW1 and/or even his Company Commander when he was a corporal if that is possible to know. I know that Hindenburg was Reich President as did Hitler respect him at that position until he died? He let the Kaiser live in the netherlands correct?? and Ludendorff??
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Flyover Country
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
In fact I have. Two years ago a new book devoted to that subject was released and I found it to be an excellent read. It's:
Amazon.com: Halsey's Typhoon: The True Story of a Fighting Admiral, an Epic Storm, and an Untold Rescue: Robert Drury, Tom Clavin: Books
Wow, 800 sailors drowned and it sank three destroyers? Incredible. Shows the limits of meteorology in WWII. Considering it was the return leg of bombing Japan that discovered the jet stream even existed, there was some excuse of this was attributed to human error, I'll have to read this book for details, thanks for the link
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Flyover Country
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Schorner abandoned his command at some point after May 8 and flew to Austria where he was arrested by the U. S. Army. He was turned over to the Soviets who had been so impressed by his fight against them that they offered to make him a general in the new East German Army if he would convert to communism. Schorner refused and was placed in a prisoner of war camp where he remained from 1945 to 1955. Upon his release, the Soviets attempted to force him to stay in East Germany but he managed to cross over into West Germany. Presumably due to instigation on the part of East German government agents, West German media outlets began publishing reports of Schorner's wartime activities. A formal investigation was launched by the West German government into Schorner. They reviewed three instances where Schorner had ordered the court martial and execution of men under his command, and decided to charge him with manslaughter. He was convicted and spent four and half years in prison. He was released in 1963 and died in Munich ten years later.

Once again, I wasn't able to see the show so if the information I provided about Model and Schorner is redundant, my apologies.
I believe most post-war Germans loathed Schorner and he had few admirers in the Wehrmacht, either, as he was notorious for having "deserters" and "cowards" either shot or hung. I've read post war Germans despised this in former loyal Nazi's, and it was even above abdicating to the Soviets and denouncing your Nazi past and associations.
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Old 12-10-2008, 03:48 AM
 
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Tony........did you study about what Hitler thought of the Kaiser Wilhelm II and the General Staff Hindenburg and Ludendorff actions in WW1 and/or even his Company Commander when he was a corporal if that is possible to know. I know that Hindenburg was Reich President as did Hitler respect him at that position until he died? He let the Kaiser live in the netherlands correct?? and Ludendorff??
Well, when the Kaiser was forced to abdicate on November 9, 1918, he chose Holland as his place of exile, so he was there long before Hitler came to power. As to how Hitler felt about the Kaiser, it would be safe to say that he did not hold him in high regard. He stated that he felt sorry for the Kaiser because he believed that he had been the victim of slanderous Jewish press coverage. At the same time, he said the Kaiser had been too willing to surround himself with "yes" men, and was overly fond of capitalists and Jews. He also said the Kaiser was a "strutting puppet of no consequence". Hitler referred to the monarchy as "an absurdity" but made it clear that he was willing to use it and it's supporters as a means to gain power in Germany. Feeling that attaching the Nazi movement to the monarchy would help it gain respect, he on more then one occasion defended the Kaiser against press criticism that was quite prevalent in the mid 1920's. In turn, many monarchists, Catholics, and others who wished to see a more conservative or even authoritarian style government replace the Weimar Republic flocked to support the Nazi Party and Hitler.

The Kaiser seems to have become aware of Hitler around 1923 in the aftermath of the Beer Hall Putsch in Munich. The Kaiser was thrilled at the attempt to bring down the Weimar Republic which he so despised. Yet he felt that Hitler would never become a figure of prominence in German politics so he lost interest. Strangely though, members of the Kaiser's family became involved early on with the Nazi Party. His oldest son, August became an SA member in 1928 and later worked as a propagandist with Joseph Goebbels. Both August and his brother Oskar officially joined the party in 1930. Their sister, Victoria Louise, was also an ardent Nazi supporter. Much of it had to do with their belief that the Nazi's supported the monarchy but would also restore Germany to it's former glory. When the Nazi's started to make huge gains through the ballot box, the Kaiser became interested again and fervently hoped that the Nazi's would follow through and pave the way for him to return to the throne. In the aftermath of the Reichstag elections of 1932 and the stunning Nazi victory, the Kaiser thought the time had arrived. Instead, Hitler refused to join a coalition government and take the post of vice-chancellor, a move that enraged the Kaiser. The Kaiser viewed this as final proof that Hitler was an opportunist that only wished to gain power for himself at any cost and therefore not a supporter of restoring the monarchy. To add insult to injury, when crowds gathered in Berlin and across Germany to celebrate the Kaiser's seventy-fifth birthday, Hitler, who had by now gained the chancellorship, ordered the celebrations be broken up by police. Two days later, Hitler delivered a stunning speech that attacked the monarchy and declared that all monarchist institutions were outlawed.

The Kaiser was both angry and devastated by the turn of events. The hopes that he had that he would someday return to Germany and once again be it's Kaiser had completely faded. He railed against Hitler but it really didn't matter because he had become nothing more then a remnant of a bygone era. He did watch with glee as Hitler began the expansion of Germany, but not because he believed in or supported him. The Kaiser was also proud that one of his sons and eight of his grandsons were serving in the Wehrmacht. It was not until the fall of France that the Kaiser finally acknowledged and congratulated Hitler for what he had accomplished; a task that the Kaiser and his armies had failed at. The Kaiser's reward was the placement of a Wehrmacht honor guard at the gates of his palace in Holland, which stayed in place until the Kaiser's death in 1941.

The Kaiser had directed that if his death occurred after his restoration to the throne, then he was to be buried in Potsdam. If that had not taken place, then he was to be laid to rest on the grounds of his Dutch estate. He expressly forbade the display of any Nazi symbols at his funeral. Hitler attempted to have the funeral moved to Berlin for propaganda purposes but the Kaiser's family and retainers staunchly refused. Because he was not able to have his way, Hitler did not attend the funeral, so the task of representing the Nazi's fell to Dr. Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Reichcommisioner of the Netherlands, and his staff. Hitler also forbade any German military officers from attending the funeral but many did, only in civilian clothing. The standout was August von Mackensen who appeared at the funeral in his full First World War field marshal uniform to pay last respects to his Kaiser. The Kaiser's coffin still rests today in a small chapel on the grounds of his former home, draped with the flag of Imperial Germany.

Last edited by TonyT; 12-10-2008 at 04:17 AM..
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Old 12-10-2008, 05:32 AM
 
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Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
Tony........did you study about what Hitler thought of the Kaiser Wilhelm II and the General Staff Hindenburg and Ludendorff actions in WW1 and/or even his Company Commander when he was a corporal if that is possible to know. I know that Hindenburg was Reich President as did Hitler respect him at that position until he died? He let the Kaiser live in the netherlands correct?? and Ludendorff??
Erich Ludendorff and Adolf Hitler had much in common. Both hated the Weimar Republic with a passion. Both believed that the German Army had been betrayed, stabbed in the back, by "The November Criminals" that insisted on signing the armistice that ended the First World War, eliminating all chance of German victory. They both wished to rip into shreds the loathsome Treaty of Versailles and see Germany return to being a world power.

Ludendorff had fled Germany to Sweden when the armistice had been signed on November 11, 1918. Ludendorff returned to Germany and involved himself heavily in monarchist and anti-republic movements. He supported the Kapp Putsch of 1920 in which Wolfgang Kapp and General Walter von Luttwitz attempted to overthrow the Weimar government of Friedrich Ebert and replace it with a right wing, nationalist government. Ludendorff attempted to rally the German Army to support the Kapp Putsch but they did not so it failed. Ludendorff then joined with the Nazi Party which at the time was active primarily in Bavaria. Ludendorff admired Hitler, seeing in him a man who could likely bring down the Weimar Republic with proper military backing. Hitler, like many others of the time, saw Ludendorff as a true hero and was pleased to have his support; two war veterans standing shoulder to shoulder, fighting for a righteous cause.

When Hitler came up with the idea that would become the Beer Hall Putsch, he had Ludendorff's full approval. Ludendorff advised Hitler that if the Bavarian government could be seized by the Nazi's, then it would likely trigger a nationwide revolt that would bring down the entire republic. Ludendorff believed that with his reputation and status, he could bring the German Army to the side of the Nazi's. When the putsch began to unravel, it was Ludendorff's idea to march to the center of Munich and seize it. He even said that the army and police would likely join them. Plus, they would never dare fire on the great General Ludendorff. Hitler bought into the idea and off they marched. The march came to a quick end when the police fired on the Nazi's, killing 16 of them. Hermann Goering was wounded and Hitler was eventually arrested and imprisoned. The only thing that went according to plan was that General Ludendorff marched through the line of fire completely unscathed and was then promptly arrested. Ludendorff was tried, but acquitted.

In 1924 he stood for election as a member of the Nazi Party and was elected to the Reichstag. He ran against Hindenburg for the presidency in 1925 but failed. He retained his Reichstag seat and served there until 1928. Ludendorff had become disenchanted with Hitler and the Nazi's by 1928 and retired from political life. Though he no longer trusted Hitler, apparently Hitler never lost his admiration for Ludendorff. This is evidenced by Hitler offering to make Ludendorff a field marshal on his 70th birthday in 1935; an offer which Ludendorff vigorously refused. When Ludendorff died in 1937, completely against his wishes he was given a full state funeral on Hitler's order. While it is true that it was done partly for propaganda purposes, it was also one last show of respect by Hitler to a man that he still held in high esteem, regardless of how Ludendorff felt about him.
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Old 12-10-2008, 06:06 AM
 
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I've been getting into WWII history, and this is a great series. Thanks for the info that it's on! I just wish they didn't show so many commercials
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