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Old 02-25-2009, 07:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
I don't know why, but I have the strange feeling that had the Swedish government told Germany not to set foot on their soil, something like a full-scale invasion of Sweden might easily have followed. How shall I put it...Adolf Hitler had just a slight difficulty in respecting the sovereignty of other nations.
Exactly. If I were faced with the choice of a) slipping Nazi Germany a few million dollars and a few shipments of iron ore, or b) being invaded by the Wehrmacht with no hope of relief and having tens of thousands of my citizens shipped off to labor camps, I think I would asked the treasury to give Hitler what he wanted. Not exactly the bravest choice, but given the fact the Swedes were literally surrounded by the Axis with no hope of Allied help, probably the smartest.
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Old 02-26-2009, 12:44 PM
 
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A German-occupied Sweden in WWII would have been even more of a detriment to the Allies than their neutrality. Total access to Swedish iron ore, nickel and Swedish ball-bearing factories would have been a prize. As it was, Sweden made concessions to the Germans, but also allowed Allied spies to monitor German radio transmissions from Oland Island. Thousands of Danish Jews were given sanctuary in Sweden and many stayed after the war. The exploits of Sweden's Raoul Wallenberg in saving lives during WWII are well known. Probably Sweden was as "neutral" as any country could be while surrounded by hostilities. During Finland's defense of their homeland in the 1939-40 war with Russia, Sweden was one of the few countries to send aid to Finland and allow their citizens (8000 Swedes volunteered) to join the Finns.
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Old 02-27-2009, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
Well, I think Sweden and Switzerland both had a serious tightrope to walk at the time being vulnerable islands in a Nazi sea. It certainly doesn't excuse the loan, of course, but we also don't know under how much duress the Swedes were under. After all Sweden did supply the Allies with intelligence. What's more, the Swiss shot down any number of German warplanes. So I don't believe that either non-combatant really fully abetted one side or the other. They were probably doing their level best to keep their countries out of war.
The Wehrmacht drew up plans to invade Switzerland but those plans were never implemented for a number of reasons, the chief one being that attacking Switzerland would have severed transportation links between Germany and Italy as well as between Austria and Italy. I also have a suspicion that someone in the Nazi government - assuredly not Hitler himself, I'm guessing one of the more pragmatic Nazis like Schacht - realized the necessity of some sort of "escape plan" just in case the Thousand Year Reich lost the war and collapsed, and that the neutrality of Switzerland had to be respected just so the Nazi leadership could have a nearby country to escape to and deposit their money into upon losing the war.

Sweden? They did give the German military the right of passage through their territory and there was a great deal of pro-Nazi sentiment amongst all sectors of the population. Much of this had to do with Sweden's historical respect for German culture, replaced after WW2 by a respect for Anglo-American culture. The great film director Ingmar Bergman in his old age admitted belonging to a pro-Nazi youth group and engaging in vandalism of Jewish owned residences as a young man - he said that once early reports of the Holocaust started becoming known in Sweden, he broke his ties with Nazism and there is nothing in his body of work that suggests that he had any lingering feelings for Nazism. While Bergman wouldn't direct any films until after the war, he did work as a screenwriter during the war and there are no hints of any Hitlerian sympathies in his work during that time.

OTOH, despite the Germanophilia of Sweden at that time, Sweden did provide shelter for foreign Jews as well as protecting it's own (antisemitism never took up strong roots in Sweden), and produced two heroes who saved the lives of many Jews in Hungary, Raoul Wallenberg and Count Folke Bernadotte (who personally confronted Himmler to condemn Nazi persecution of Jews). Furthermore, Swedish leftists weren't oppressed nor were their parties shut down, and Swedish intelligence did help supply the Allies with information.

As for the other neutrals: Ireland really couldn't do much given its dependence on Britain and the UK occupation of Irish ports. Many Irishmen joined the British Army (although after the war many of them were not exactly welcomed home and wound up moving to England and Scotland as well as farther afield). Yet, Dev sent out a telegram to Germany expressing condolences upon Hitler's death. Spain was a de facto member of the Axis but was not of any military value to Hitler, and once the war turned in the Allies' favor Franco was kissing up to Churchill in the interests of survival. Portugal was a de facto member of the Allies and let the Allies establish bases on its territory, although it did not send troops. Salazar let refugees from occupied Europe pass through Portugal en route to North and South America. The Iberian countries also had an agreement that if Franco did not declare Spain as a member of the Axis, Salazar would not formally declare Portugal as a member of the Allies.
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
The Wehrmacht drew up plans to invade Switzerland but those plans were never implemented for a number of reasons, the chief one being that attacking Switzerland would have severed transportation links between Germany and Italy as well as between Austria and Italy. I also have a suspicion that someone in the Nazi government - assuredly not Hitler himself, I'm guessing one of the more pragmatic Nazis like Schacht - realized the necessity of some sort of "escape plan" just in case the Thousand Year Reich lost the war and collapsed, and that the neutrality of Switzerland had to be respected just so the Nazi leadership could have a nearby country to escape to and deposit their money into upon losing the war.

Sweden? They did give the German military the right of passage through their territory and there was a great deal of pro-Nazi sentiment amongst all sectors of the population. Much of this had to do with Sweden's historical respect for German culture, replaced after WW2 by a respect for Anglo-American culture. The great film director Ingmar Bergman in his old age admitted belonging to a pro-Nazi youth group and engaging in vandalism of Jewish owned residences as a young man - he said that once early reports of the Holocaust started becoming known in Sweden, he broke his ties with Nazism and there is nothing in his body of work that suggests that he had any lingering feelings for Nazism. While Bergman wouldn't direct any films until after the war, he did work as a screenwriter during the war and there are no hints of any Hitlerian sympathies in his work during that time.

OTOH, despite the Germanophilia of Sweden at that time, Sweden did provide shelter for foreign Jews as well as protecting it's own (antisemitism never took up strong roots in Sweden), and produced two heroes who saved the lives of many Jews in Hungary, Raoul Wallenberg and Count Folke Bernadotte (who personally confronted Himmler to condemn Nazi persecution of Jews). Furthermore, Swedish leftists weren't oppressed nor were their parties shut down, and Swedish intelligence did help supply the Allies with information.

As for the other neutrals: Ireland really couldn't do much given its dependence on Britain and the UK occupation of Irish ports. Many Irishmen joined the British Army (although after the war many of them were not exactly welcomed home and wound up moving to England and Scotland as well as farther afield). Yet, Dev sent out a telegram to Germany expressing condolences upon Hitler's death. Spain was a de facto member of the Axis but was not of any military value to Hitler, and once the war turned in the Allies' favor Franco was kissing up to Churchill in the interests of survival. Portugal was a de facto member of the Allies and let the Allies establish bases on its territory, although it did not send troops. Salazar let refugees from occupied Europe pass through Portugal en route to North and South America. The Iberian countries also had an agreement that if Franco did not declare Spain as a member of the Axis, Salazar would not formally declare Portugal as a member of the Allies.
Thanks for the excellent post. Rep to you. However, I would point out a couple of other facts as well. For example, Sweden intelligence tipped off the British about the Bismarck's imminent sally into the North Atlanta for convoy raiding. Further, Sweden participated in operational planning with the Allies for the potential invasion of both Denmark and Norway, and American planes were given right to use Swedish bases during the liberation of both countries after the German collapse.

My point is a simple one. The Swedes did not face a simple clearcut choice, and did whatever it could to ensure its national survival.
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Old 02-28-2009, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska (most of the time)
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As a Swede, I think it is embarrasing that my country aided Germany in any way during the world war. But, as many has said, it wasn't really a "choice", as Germany said "either do as we say, or we invade". Sweden did not have any army to protect the borders (during the time the government said we did, to keep people calm, which is something they've received plenty of criticism for in the WWII aftermath), so had Germany wanted to, it would have been able to invade us with pretty much no German casualties.

It is kind of difficult being neutral if all the parties of the war don't respect one's neutrality...
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:55 AM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweden View Post
As a Swede, I think it is embarrasing that my country aided Germany in any way during the world war. But, as many has said, it wasn't really a "choice", as Germany said "either do as we say, or we invade". Sweden did not have any army to protect the borders (during the time the government said we did, to keep people calm, which is something they've received plenty of criticism for in the WWII aftermath), so had Germany wanted to, it would have been able to invade us with pretty much no German casualties.

It is kind of difficult being neutral if all the parties of the war don't respect one's neutrality...
Errm Sweden has always had a military and a long military history. Dident they also build some sort of Maginot Line style defensive system during WWII?

I don't think the Wermacht would have fared too well against the Kustjager (the Royal Swedish Navy's version of our US Navy SEALs).
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:55 AM
 
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Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
Errm Sweden has always had a military and a long military history. Dident they also build some sort of Maginot Line style defensive system during WWII?

I don't think the Wermacht would have fared too well against the Kustjager (the Royal Swedish Navy's version of our US Navy SEALs).
The Swedes did build up their home defense system in WWII, but I was wondering if you may be thinking of Finland's Mannerheim Line on the Karelian Isthmus, where heavy fighting took place during the Russian-Finnish war in 1939-40.
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Old 03-09-2009, 06:08 PM
 
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They had use for the swiss but that doesn't mean they were not a future aim. There is alot more to swiss involvement than just money and iron ore.
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Old 03-13-2009, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Anchorage, Alaska (most of the time)
1,226 posts, read 3,640,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
Errm Sweden has always had a military and a long military history. Dident they also build some sort of Maginot Line style defensive system during WWII?

I don't think the Wermacht would have fared too well against the Kustjager (the Royal Swedish Navy's version of our US Navy SEALs).
True that we USED to have it, but we don't anymore We have a small defense, but if anyone wants to invade, they're pretty much free to do it, because even today, there's not much to our defense. We haven't been at war for 200 years, so we don't really put a lot of effort into it these days. Nor did we during the WWI or WWII.
It is a well known fact that if Germany had wanted to, it would have invaded Sweden within two days or so. There was no defense, and Kustjägarna... They didn't exist at that time- they started in 1956, long after the war...
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kustj%C3%A4gare_(Sverige)
Kustjägarna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seriously, Germany invaded Norway, Denmark, Poland and so many other countries. Does anyone really think Sweden would be able to stand a chance against one of the most well-organized armies in European history?
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