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Old 05-11-2009, 05:51 PM
 
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One thing that has struck me about American history is how we as a people often have a tendency to romanticize criminals, be it Billy the Kid, Bonnie And Clyde or the treasonous leaders of the Confederacy.

Personally, while I find the history of organized crime in this country fascinating as a general topic, the glorifying sociopaths strikes me as horrifying, especially in a supposedly Christian nation.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
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First of all, it is nothing new and not unique to America. Boccaccio, the Arabian Nights, and Chaucer all had plenty of tales romanticizing criminals.

For many years in both Hollywood and radio dramas, there was a regulatory board that ensured that if anybody committed a crime in the story, they had to receive their just desserts before the curtain fell. I think the first picture to break the mold was a Bogart film in which he was a prison escapee who just disappeared into the darkness as the credits rolled, saying "I steal".

In the past 10-20 years, in both American and European films, it is actually unusual to see the enforcement arm of justice portrayed as meritorious characters.

See Hugo Weaving in "The Interview" for a really wonderful take on the subject, which I won't spoil for you.
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Old 05-11-2009, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobE View Post
the glorifying sociopaths strikes me as horrifying, especially in a supposedly Christian nation.

Thoughts?
Yes, I dislike the glorifying of Christians in a sociopathic nation.

But seriously, those criminals glorified in our culture are usually "social" criminals; those who are sometimes looked upon as fighting back against corporate and government interests that oppress the common man. Thus the Midwestern bandits of the 1930s could be looked upon as striking at the banks that were foreclosing homes and farms, Jesse James as striking back at eastern and northern business interests and Billy the Kid as fighting a corrupt league between business and government. It's not the truth of these notions that matters to some people so much as the perceptions.

The treasonous leaders of the Great Rebellion were let off the hook as part of a deal to ensure political unity; the winners decided to let the losers up easy and pretend they weren't bloody-handed traitors and defenders of human slavery. Now 150 years later many are unaware of this social deal and think loyal people really thought the rebels were good guys.

Last edited by Irishtom29; 05-11-2009 at 07:40 PM..
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,597,011 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobE View Post
One thing that has struck me about American history is how we as a people often have a tendency to romanticize criminals, be it Billy the Kid, Bonnie And Clyde or the treasonous leaders of the Confederacy.

Personally, while I find the history of organized crime in this country fascinating as a general topic, the glorifying sociopaths strikes me as horrifying, especially in a supposedly Christian nation
This is true in every nation to an extent, but America and Australia more than most. I think this is because both the USA and Australia were founded by Britain's rejects, and us "rejects" did quite well for ourselves. Outlaw mythology is part of our culture (and that of the good people Down Under). Ireland also tends to romanticize criminals (not coincidentally, a country which a HUGE number of Americans and Aussies have ancestry from, and which certainly has influenced the culture of both) - in the case of the Irish, it is a result of centuries of oppression and fighting against near-impossible odds.
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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It's a point of view matter, we root for the familiar and make common cause with them based on that familiarity rather than an objective evaluation of the morality involved. If you make the Bonnie and Clyde story with the focus on the lives and adventures of them, the audience wants them to escape the law, wants them to win the shootout, wants them to prevail because it is only natural to root for the protagonists in any story. We're seeing everything through their eyes.

If on the other hand you made the Bonnie and Clyde story through the eyes of their victims, then the victims would become the protagonists and we would be rooting for Bonnie and Clyde to get their just punishment. In the former, if Clyde shoots a policeman, well, that was just an anonymous plot device which has been disposed. In the latter, if the film introduced us to that cop, and we met his wife and kids who have now been widowed/orphaned, then Bonnie and Clyde aren't charming bandits, they are cruel murderers.

That's really all there is to this. In films there are the protagonists and there are the disposable people who serve to move the story along, but aren't real people in our minds, just plot devices.

If they had ever made a Star Trek episode from the point of view of one of the Redshirts who gets killed, then Kirk would come across as an uncaring and heartless commander who treats his crewmembers as pawns.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:42 AM
 
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I steal from corporate America every chance I get. Ooops did I just say that? I meant that I creatively acquire merchandise of various sorts to off set their highway robbery of my tax dollars.

I'm for the little man who stands up against government corruption, corporate greed, and the lazy legal system or apathy on the part of law officials/officers toward those who would steal from me.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:59 AM
 
9,912 posts, read 13,900,220 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
This is true in every nation to an extent, but America and Australia more than most. I think this is because both the USA and Australia were founded by Britain's rejects, and us "rejects" did quite well for ourselves. Outlaw mythology is part of our culture (and that of the good people Down Under). Ireland also tends to romanticize criminals (not coincidentally, a country which a HUGE number of Americans and Aussies have ancestry from, and which certainly has influenced the culture of both) - in the case of the Irish, it is a result of centuries of oppression and fighting against near-impossible odds.
Oppression and near impossible odds that the English intended to continue here in Australia had they been able, which is why there are some "criminals" and "outlaws" that aren't romantacized so much as recognized for the very valuable contribution they made to making Australia the democratic country it is today.

These other clowns that are busy gunning each other down in the Gangland wars and other ridiculous "celebrity" outlaw games, like that drop kick Chopper Read, who are now immortalized and glorified with numerous award winning television dramas and movies to their credit. Yep, they've been romantacized and glorified and discussed and held up as pillars of the community but they're pathetic thugs and drug dealers and they do nothing for the betterment of society other than to exterminate each other and frankly I wish they'd hurry up and finish the job so the lot of them were gone.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Aloverton
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The glorification of criminality, I think, will always be with us. Exhibit: gangsta rap.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,560 posts, read 14,457,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATX Homeboy View Post
I steal from corporate America every chance I get. Ooops did I just say that? I meant that I creatively acquire merchandise of various sorts to off set their highway robbery of my tax dollars.

I'm for the little man who stands up against government corruption, corporate greed, and the lazy legal system or apathy on the part of law officials/officers toward those who would steal from me.
When I was on my dorm's advisory staff in college, I happened to lean down at a desk, and saw the underside of one of the in-trays had a pressed tape on it (the kind we used to make with that little dial device, whatever it was called). The tape read: F*** THE SYSTEM BECAUSE IT F***S YOU.

Then I got out into the real world, and saw how true it was. And at first I felt sorry for those who not only served and were screwed, but who glorified service and being screwed, and tried to invest both with dignity. I respect anyone who's taking a hosing and finds a sane way to hit back. But I'm probably the only positive comment you'll get. Willing slaves, who should admire rebellious slaves, for some reason tend to despise them instead.
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Old 05-21-2009, 01:17 PM
 
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I think it's the passive agressive nature of many in modern society. Many dream of being "hard" and "beat the system" types, while not really thinking about the consequences nor wanting to face the punishment.

As far as the whole "Opression" psychology goes, that's a manifestation of the spoiled brat cultrue of today. Getting something for nothing. In places where crime really, truly is a way of life (Somalia, parts of Italy, Russia, Central America), the glamour is not the first thing they'll tell you about.
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