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Old 07-01-2009, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,560 posts, read 14,427,731 times
Reputation: 10165

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I have a real and sever problem with that line of argument because it erroneously divorces the slave trade to the colonial and neo-colonial exploitation of African that is inextricably tied to the slave trade to begin with.
You disagree that modern black Americans would mostly rather live in the US than Africa, and that a lot of modern black Africans would emigrate to the US given the opportunity?

Suppose there never had been a slave trade. (Suppose there still wasn't one, for that matter.) What suggests that there still wouldn't have been colonial exploitation? Forcible abduction is not the same thing as invading and setting up shop to loot resources at terrible human cost to the locals. Both occurred, and both were very awful, but they are not inextricably connected. Especially since the latter went on for many years after the former had ceased (except for those who didn't cease, which not being Western, get a pass).
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,560 posts, read 14,427,731 times
Reputation: 10165
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBorn View Post
Before you accuse someone of being irresponsible in their comments go back and read your own words!! First of all you were off topic bringing up the AIDS epidemic in your response.........we are discussing slavery! You tried to justify what happened by implying that somehow black people are better off. That is absurd to imply that people are better off being forced (kidnapped) to leave their birthplace. I am quite sure that simply being black in America can NEVER be considered a form of compensation for slavery.

Here are your exact words:

granting the major contribution that black slaves made toward the building of this nation, their modern descendants did get at least one form of compensation: they live here, rather than in Africa. Africa has some of the most corrupt, unstable and impoverished living areas on the whole planet, with little upward mobility opportunity except for the rich (who are already in charge anyway). The corruption makes New Orleans look like Provo. At times the violence makes New Orleans look like Fargo. Then there is disease, in which AIDS has become almost a new black African Holocaust. It would not surprise me to learn that more black Africans have now died from AIDS than were ever shipped over as slaves.
But the modern descendants of today were never slaves. Their ancestors were. The modern descendants got a chance, of at least some sort, at the American dream. Many of their modern descendants are better off than the modern descendants of those who lived out their lives in Africa.

As for modern Africa's problems, I think AIDS is among them, and a valid part of any discussion about the impact of the past on today. If most of modern Africa's problems can be traced to colonialism and slavery (as you seem to feel), what of the one that has killed so many million Africans? Might that not be better handled had Africa not endured what it endured?

You're just getting all emotional and not reading carefully. In so doing, you're still trying to twist my words to sound like something that will get you good and riled up, ignoring most of the rest of what I've said because a lot of it is sympathetic (if not in the proper subservient fashion) to the very real issues plaguing modern black America, and acknowledging it would undermine your little temper fit. If you keep it up, I simply won't engage you at all.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:29 PM
 
Location: New York City
1,556 posts, read 3,540,479 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
But the modern descendants of today were never slaves. Their ancestors were. The modern descendants got a chance, of at least some sort, at the American dream. Many of their modern descendants are better off than the modern descendants of those who lived out their lives in Africa.

As for modern Africa's problems, I think AIDS is among them, and a valid part of any discussion about the impact of the past on today. If most of modern Africa's problems can be traced to colonialism and slavery (as you seem to feel), what of the one that has killed so many million Africans? Might that not be better handled had Africa not endured what it endured?

You're just getting all emotional and not reading carefully. In so doing, you're still trying to twist my words to sound like something that will get you good and riled up, ignoring most of the rest of what I've said because a lot of it is sympathetic (if not in the proper subservient fashion) to the very real issues plaguing modern black America, and acknowledging it would undermine your little temper fit. If you keep it up, I simply won't engage you at all.
Whether black people (descendants) have benefited from the American dream is highly debatable......I can guarantee you most would say no to that statement. That is a subjective statement depending on what black person you talk to. The bottom line is maybe had Africa been left to develop without interference these problems (AIDS) that you mention may not exist to the level that they exist today. I truly believe that the problems that exist in Africa were caused by the country losing so many of it's people. Black people made a HUGE contribution to the building and resulting wealth of America and had they of not been kidnapped they could have built Africa into a strong country the same way!

America profited at the expense of Africa!!
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:41 PM
 
72,877 posts, read 62,373,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBorn View Post
Whether black people (descendants) have benefited from the American dream is highly debatable......I can guarantee you most would say no to that statement. That is a subjective statement depending on what black person you talk to. The bottom line is maybe had Africa been left to develop without interference these problems (AIDS) that you mention may not exist to the level that they exist today. I truly believe that the problems that exist in Africa were caused by the country losing so many of it's people. Black people made a HUGE contribution to the building and resulting wealth of America and had they of not been kidnapped they could have built Africa into a strong country the same way!

America profited at the expense of Africa!!
Indeed it did. That is why I think the South would not have given up slavery so easily without a fight.
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,701,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBorn View Post
Can not use the words HUMAN OR NORMAL in the description of what has happened to Africa!
I don't know how else to describe it. it's what people do. If it's not human behavior than what is it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBorn View Post
As I mentioned previously when millions of the strongest Africans were snatched from their homes the world order was disrupted. The snatching of people resulted in those people being SCATTERED in different places, which caused the problems we see in Africa today and also caused a disruption of the world order. For example had Africa been left to develop without outside interference the civil war may not have happened, Africa, America, Europe and the Caribbean would have developed differently.

Their is no natural "world order". It is what it is as a result of the actions of people, there is no theoretical cloud-cuckoo-land that the world should be.

And there's no place on earth that has developed undisturbed; people get around you see, indeed without input form others few places would develop at all. The historical experience of Africa is not unique.

Many populations have been scattered around the world, the Jews and Irish come to mind. Huge numbers of Celts and Germans were enslaved by the Romans but both groups seem to be doing OK. Maybe I should be crying about the "natural order" being disturbed by the Roman conquest of Celtic Gaul and Britain, "if only we'd been left free to develop undisturbed". Yeah, so what?
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Old 07-01-2009, 02:56 PM
 
Location: New York City
1,556 posts, read 3,540,479 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Indeed it did. That is why I think the South would not have given up slavery so easily without a fight.


You are absolutely right. If the south did not end up losing the civil war who knows how much longer they would have continued to keep slavery going. The only thing is that the problems did not end with them losing the civil war. The slaves were also promised 40 acres of land and a mule in order to feed their families after slavery ended. This is yet another debt that the US government promised to black people and has never paid.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,701,922 times
Reputation: 10454
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewYorkBorn View Post

This is yet another debt that the US government promised to black people and has never paid.
Any debt The United States owed the slaves was paid in blood at Vicksburg, Chicakamauga, Cold Harbor, Kenesaw........you get the picture.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:09 PM
 
Location: New York City
1,556 posts, read 3,540,479 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
I don't know how else to describe it. it's what people do. If it's not human behavior than what is it?

Their is no natural "world order". It is what it is as a result of the actions of people, there is no theoretical cloud-cuckoo-land that the world should be.

And there's no place on earth that has developed undisturbed; people get around you see, indeed without input form others few places would develop at all. The historical experience of Africa is not unique.

Many populations have been scattered around the world, the Jews and Irish come to mind. Huge numbers of Celts and Germans were enslaved by the Romans but both groups seem to be doing OK. Maybe I should be crying about the "natural order" being disturbed by the Roman conquest of Celtic Gaul and Britain, "if only we'd been left free to develop undisturbed". Yeah, so what?
You simply can not compare the enslavement of the Germans by the Romans with what happened to Africa and it's descendents (black people). African slavery lasted roughly 465 years!! As you said both groups (Germans & Romans) came out okay. Africa and it's descendants did not come out OK! The Germans still have their language, they have a connection to their birth home. Germans packed their suitcases along with the Irish, Italians and every other immigrant group that came to America (Ellis Island). Black people were bought here in chains by force and did not have a choice.........complete difference.

Black people have absolutely no connection to their birth home (Africa), religion, language (slave owner stopped them from teaching their children African history, culture, language and religion.

If you are going to do comparisons it should be apples to apples and oranges to oranges!!
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:13 PM
 
Location: New York City
1,556 posts, read 3,540,479 times
Reputation: 944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Any debt The United States owed the slaves was paid in blood at Vicksburg, Chicakamauga, Cold Harbor, Kenesaw........you get the picture.
Surely you don't believe that! Let's not make it seem like slavery was the only agenda that was being fought over in the war. As I mentioned before the amount of money that is owed to black people for the atrocity of slavery and its resulting contribution to the wealth of America is ENORMOUS and too much money to calculate!
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,560 posts, read 14,427,731 times
Reputation: 10165
Are there any credible statistics on the number of slaves abducted from Africa per decade, and some credible estimates of the overall African population during those times? I would be especially interested in the figures for 1783-1820, specific to the United States. I suspect that very few of the total slaves abducted from Africa in the history of the slave trade were brought to the United States after it gained independence.

By the way, might not want to take too far the viewpoint that slavers took all the strongest and brightest. No doubt slavers tried at least to get the strongest and healthiest; however, since most Africans absolutely did not want to be enslaved, it might stand to reason that the smartest and most athletic were the ones who managed to evade capture.
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