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Old 06-12-2010, 10:11 AM
Status: "Uncomfortably numb" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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What did the Ottoman Empire do in WW1?

Provided footrests for everyone?
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Old 06-12-2010, 10:43 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
The turks fought against the Russians in the Caucaus area. Some historians suggest had they had more success then they did there they might have stired up Russian and English Muslims to rebellion - which would have had major impact on the war. The battles in the region were a lot closer than the final results (Ottoman defeat) reflected.
Here is the map showing the extent of Russian advances in northeastern Turkey until the Revolution.



About a stones throw away from Iraq.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Fairfield, CT
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Originally Posted by thelogannator123 View Post
In WW1 the Central powers consisted of Germany, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire. I know that German and Austrian troops fought in the trench lines in in the Western and Eastern fronts, but did the Ottoman empire ever send troops to reinforce the lines? Or did they do something else in WW1? Were they more of an economic ally or military ally?
They massacred a lot of Armenians.
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Old 06-12-2010, 04:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Thyra View Post
It's funny this thread came up just now.. I ordered a copy of TE Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" from the library last week..and picked it up today...Think it is going to be a great book. WWI is, to me, much more interesting than WWII, which was just the conclusion to the First. As has been mentioned, the Ottoman Empire was in very bad shape at that time, and probably would not have lasted much longer.
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Originally Posted by Tex?Il? View Post
Very true. I'm guessing in Europe they teach history quite differently (and I'm sure the different countries teach it quite differently from each other) in that by putting much more emphasis on WW1 and before (France lost over a milliont soldiers in WW1, more than the total number of American casualties in all wars combined) they more more fully understand the causes of World War II.

In the U.S., they kind of teach WW2 like Nazi Germany just came out of nowhere. This is unfortunate, because it may give Americans a wrong impression of Germany. Whereas there were very specific circumstances to the rise of Nazi Germany during that time and place, and is not at all reflective of German culture in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by big daryle View Post
WW1 was so tragic largely becase it was fought because of the whims of 3 monarchs in Russia, Austria-Hungary, and Germany. It is shocking the people of Europe, considered to be intelligent wouldnt have insisted on democracies long before. At least in countries like Sweden, Spain, England, etc. the monarchs had beenstrictly figureheads by then for quite some time. Can you imagine Elizabeth actually telling Blair or Brown what to do, they would laugh in her face! Or george trying to tell Chamberlain ot Churchill what to do, same thing!
to truly understand WW l, you really need to step back further into history around the time of the napoleanic wars. before that time the wars in europe were mostly city against city, and later state against state until actual countries that we know today were formed. napolean the first essentially tried to do what hitler wanted to do, that is unite all of europe including western russia under one flag. during that time france gained a lot of ground that wasnt taken back until later in the century, and lost even more during the franco-prussian war. during the time between napolean and WW l, old animosities simmered until the flash point assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne at the hands of the serbian nationalist secret society the black hand. here is a breakdown of the various alliances, and crisis that were in place before the trigger of WW l;

Causes of World War One

Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
Let me disagree. Everyone says the Ottoman Empire was finished when WW1 started. The young Turks staged a coup and they surprised everyone who fought them. Not only they defeated the allies at Gallipoli (Churchill also was certain of a quick victory), but as you correctly say, they also defeated the British at Kut (another surprise for the allies). Alenby started his campaign in Palestine, but after conquering Jerusalem, he stalled for more then a year before advancing north towards Damascus. If the Ottomans were finished, how could they put such resistance, keeping him back for so long?
As for Italy in WW2, how many major battles did they win? Before Mussolini, Italy wasn't much of a colonial power, but the Ottoman Empire had about 400 years experience in dominating large areas and fighting wars in both Asia and Europe. The Ottomans were considered undeveloped, yet they had a great army who fought very well under dire circumstances. Can anyone explain why the Turkish soldiers didn't put down their arms and ran home?

actually the ottoman empire was pretty much done as an empire. oddly enough they were courted by both the central powers and the allies. they choose the central powers in part because of the deal they made, and in part because they could then go after russia and take back some of the lands that the various russian tsars had taken from them over the centuries. had the ottomans picked the winning side, they may have held onto their power, at least until WW ll, rather than being broken up.

the turks are fierce fighters, always have been, and they are also fiercely loyal as well. if they are on your side they are good ally to have, if they are against you, they will be a tough enemy.

as for italy, their campaign was probably the toughest of the war, fighting in the mountains, and while they never reached their goals, they did draw off resources that could have been used elsewhere by the central powers.
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:26 PM
 
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The Ottomans were not as pumped up for war as everyone else. The Young Turks felt they had to fight and pick the winning side because otherwise the winners would just divide up their lands in the aftermath whether hey were neutral or losers. The problem was they'd bought two dreadnoughts from British shipyards. These were modern ships paid for largely out of donations by the populace. When the war started the British government announced that the newly finished ships were to be commandeered. The Germans said we have two dreadnoughts for you and a German admiral to command them. The honor of the nation and the people squarely besmirched by Britain with Germany acting as a white knight pretty much ensured the Ottomans had to join the Central Powers. For what it's worth the Ottoman Emperor who was also caliph called the war a jihad and asked all Muslims to rise up against the Allies (aimed particularly at causing civil war India, but also in other Allied possessions) though nothing really came of it.

It probably didn't help Ottoman interests that Ataturk viewed the possessions outside of Anatolia as drains on the Turkish people and nation. Although he had no qualms about conquering most of Greece after the war was over even though the Allies made him give it back.

As a historical oddity a lot of Turks were really hoping to become an American mandate once the war was lost. They felt the US would show them the ropes on becoming a true democracy, but the US not signing the Treaty of Versailles kept that from happening for better or for worse. As another historical oddity out of the major powers destroyed in the war (German Empire, Austria-Hungary, Russian Empire, and Ottoman Empire) the "sick man of Europe" was the last to actually die.
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Arthur George View Post
I have a question for all of you. My Father Arthur George Willoughby was a pilot in the RFC in WW1.


He lost his hearing in a sand storm in Egypt when his plane was forced to land,he never talked much about what happened, he never received any pension and died in Sept 2 1976.

That was long ago but it is always on my mind that he lost his hearing and was reduced to silence while serving his county for nothing.

Does anyone have a simular Story?
I don't think it was for nothing. Suppose it had become clear the Allies didn't care about anything happening in Asia or Africa. The Germans might have sent enough guys down there to really do some damage. Maybe they destroy the Suez Canal and gain a huge foothold in Africa. They could control a lot of the ship movement in the eastern Mediterranean if they could launch planes from all its coasts, and if they could start building U-Boats in Ottoman lands to attack ships in the Indian Ocean things start getting really crazy. So now the Allies have to get serious about a war in Africa, but the Germans have had time to get ready for them. They may be able to really take it to the Allies in Europe while being the defenders in Africa in a war that favored defense. Plus he could say he was a WWI pilot which is a pretty select group.

To answer your question though as far as I know none of my family served in the Great War.
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
The Britain invaded Mesopotamia and created the Emirate of Kuwait and the Kingdom of Iraq.

Kuwait already was a British proectorate due to a secret treaty between the father or uncle of the current (WWI) Emir if I remember correctly. Most of the current nations of Arabia today were secretly or openly British protectorates at the time of WWI except for Saudi Arabia which basically had become too powerful for the Ottomans to rule. Lots of folks say Kuwait was still part of the Empire because they flew the flag, had Imperial tax collectors, and allowed the Imperial post to run. However, the Emir had the best of both worlds as the guy was officially powerful in the Empire and due to the secret treaty. Imperial tax collectors gave him a cut by the law of the Empire which basically got him tax money without having to pay tax collectors. Its sort of sad as the Ottoman Sultan at the time really believed all these guys were loyal to him because he believed in Pan-Islamism so much, and when he did get suspicious that they'd done something underhanded like say maybe make a secret treaty establishing themselves as a British protectorate he believed them as long as they denied it.

Last edited by AuburnAL; 06-12-2010 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Houston, texas
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Empires in collapse become more dangerous to their minorities than ever they are in their heydays. Confidence fosters tolerance, but a siege mentality magnifies minor differences. While the first World War is usally credited with causing the final collapse of the Ottoman Empire, it began two decades earlier, when nationalist fever and conspiracy theories combined to ignite the first great massacres of the empire's Armenian citizens.Among the leading European states, only Germany, a latecomer to imperial aspirations, proved willing to ignore the butchery the empires new wave of Turkish nationalist inflicted on Armenians,Bulgarians, Greeks and other subject peoples.An intellectual and political backwater,Istanbul failed to grasp the profound changes sweeping the globe, while the rise of the young turks merely insured that corruption would benefit a new generation in place of the old. Instead of being reformed, the empire was further deformed. Germany- the rouge state if the era-offered arms, training and after much debate in Berlin, a military alliance.In the final years before the outbreak of War in 1914, dissenting members of the junta that ruled in the sultans name approached Britian and sounded out France about reviving their old alliance. The Turks were rebuffed, Germany leapt in, and the grasping, unprepared Ottoman Empire blundered into War.The Arab states that eventually emerged from the Ottoman collapse and European land grabs have been described as tribes with flags.Perhaps the most diastrous effect of the end of the Ottoman rule was that it allowed Wahhabism(a form of islam that insist on a literal interpretation of the Koran) to escape the Arabian Peninsula in force.The post Ottoman future has barely begun.Despite our investment of blood and treasure in the Middle East, we're little more than spectators.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by big daryle View Post
The Turks have long been known as fierce fighters. My dad fought alongside them during the Korean War. He said that when they killed a Chinese or North Korean soldier, they would cut their heads off and impale them on a stake next to their tent or foxhole. Now that is a warrior mentality!

Not a warrior, but a barbaric overkill . They do the same today to their own and others .
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:50 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur George View Post
I have a question for all of you. My Father Arthur George Willoughby was a pilot in the RFC in WW1.


He lost his hearing in a sand storm in Egypt when his plane was forced to land,he never talked much about what happened, he never received any pension and died in Sept 2 1976.

That was long ago but it is always on my mind that he lost his hearing and was reduced to silence while serving his county for nothing.

Does anyone have a simular Story?
My mother's father's father was a US infantry man in WW1 and he suffered traumatic flash backs and nerves for the rest of his life. Today we'd call it PTSD but the idea wasn't around then; the closest was shell shock which was thought to be a short term temperary condition following extreme bombardment not the long term condition we now know PTSD to be.
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