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Old 03-03-2010, 02:07 PM
 
4,925 posts, read 10,252,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
Anything is possible...Or they claimed they got lost and did it deliberately. Either way both governments said nothing of it.
Anything is possible and it sometimes it was more than possible. T.
here were times both governments did keep things quiet. Other times, not so quiet.

My father flew RB-29s out of Japan following the Korean War. They were primarily electronic surveillance, but on occasion went into the USSR, usually, as my dad has said, as "bait", usually to poke the Soviets to see how they'd react. They were shot down in the mid-'50s, made it so that they bailed out over a small northern Japanese island. It killed his tailgunner. Became a huge international incident that got ugly.

Dad has said the only reason it became such a huge internationally known incident is that a bunch of Japanese fishermen saw them go down and helped rescue some of the crew that landed in the ocean. They had lost other planes for the same reason that you didn't hear about, and in fact, the USAF would launch search efforts in areas of the ocean where they knew the plane didn't go down. Of course, this has all come out since the cold war has ended.

I asked dad when I was a kid if they were over Soviet airspace or territory when they were shot down, as the old newspaper clippings I have say. He said "Not at the moment."

As far as the Spetsnaz shooting the guy, if it happened I figure they thought better that than to actually be caught on US soil and having it proven beyond all doubt they'd been there.

Don't know if it happened or not, but wouldn't surprise me, despite whether there was anything on that island or not. Sometimes all you're doing is seeing if there are weak spots in a country's defense, sometimes you're just trying to see how they'll react...it's all useful info.
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Old 03-03-2010, 03:49 PM
 
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Why would they not (if they did not want to buy a travel map locally) simply send people without weapons who spoke English. Than if the scouts saw them they could simply claim to be from the US (or canada). Its not like people of slavic decent are not living in the US.
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Old 03-03-2010, 04:45 PM
 
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Sure, I guess they could do that.

They'd still stick out like a sore thumb. Anyone would, no matter what they spoke or what they looked like. It's not the kind of place where people just show up. It's nearest neighbor was (and may still be for all I know) a Soviet military installation.

I'd be interested in where the info in the link posted came from. I know some of what it says to be true, but other parts?
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Old 03-06-2010, 05:16 PM
 
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There was no "Spetsnaz" of any kind. It's a sorta a slang word used in spoken language to name mushrooming Russian special units of all sorts (police, army, navy, and hell knows who else have their own "spetsnaz"), they are multiplying like rabbits . This word is relatively new, its use picked up in the last years of USSR. In the heydays of cold war It was not invented yet .
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Old 03-06-2010, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
There was no "Spetsnaz" of any kind. This word is relatively new, its use picked up in the last years of USSR. In the heydays of cold war It was not invented yet .
Really? Tell that to the Afghans. Spetsnaz units were heavily involved in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan 1979-1989, and the population suffered greatly at their hands. These elite units existed long before that, and, as stated earlier, were under the control of the GRU, although a few internal security units were assigned to the KGB, now the FSB in the Russian Federation.
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Old 03-07-2010, 02:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShoe View Post
Really? Tell that to the Afghans. Spetsnaz units were heavily involved in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan 1979-1989, and the population suffered greatly at their hands. These elite units existed long before that, and, as stated earlier, were under the control of the GRU, although a few internal security units were assigned to the KGB, now the FSB in the Russian Federation.
"spetznaz" is a general conversational term for all kinds of special units in Russian army, police, civil defence, navy, gru etc.. It's abbreviated combination of two words "special" and "purpose", it is NOT official name of the units.

I don't know why you think afghan population suffered greatly at their hands. It doesn't make any "economical" sense to use elite units for the routine mopping ups #1 cause of civilian casualties, especially if mopping ups are "facilitated" with artillery and air strikes.
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Old 03-08-2010, 11:21 AM
 
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Yeah spetznaz means essentially special forces in Russian. As I noted previously there were many different "spetznaz" units in different organizations. They commonly had little to do with each other organizationally or in terms of missions. Its like talking about US Rangers, Green Beret, SEALS, Marine Recon and the like and using the term special forces for them all.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:14 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,801 posts, read 9,075,145 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
"spetznaz" is a general conversational term for all kinds of special units in Russian army, police, civil defence, navy, gru etc.. It's abbreviated combination of two words "special" and "purpose", it is NOT official name of the units.

I don't know why you think afghan population suffered greatly at their hands. It doesn't make any "economical" sense to use elite units for the routine mopping ups #1 cause of civilian casualties, especially if mopping ups are "facilitated" with artillery and air strikes.
Correct, the Russian police special forces are called OMON (Otryad Militsii Osobogo Naznacheniya/Special Purpose Police Unit). Every Oblast (sort of like a province) has it's own OMON unit. The Russian Ministry of the Interior (which controls the police - Russia like most Eastern European nations only has a single national police force) also has it's own army called Internal Troops who in turn also have their own special forces type units. To round it out the FSB (Federal Security Service - the successor to the KGB) has it's own special forces units (Alfa Group and Vympel Group) as does the Federal Protective Service.
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Old 03-08-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
6,688 posts, read 4,482,607 times
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Appears someone saw the old 60's film 'Ice Station Zebra" at some point in time and confused it with reality.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:33 AM
 
4,925 posts, read 10,252,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Appears someone saw the old 60's film 'Ice Station Zebra" at some point in time and confused it with reality.
Yeah, that movie was kind of out there, but you do know that there were multiple instances of American soldiers, primarily Air Force and Navy airmen that were killed by the Soviets during the so-called Cold War, don't you? Most of those instances weren't broad public knowledge (or any public knowledge) until after the fall of the USSR.
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