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Old 08-17-2009, 09:16 PM
 
Location: MIA
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Didn't the average African live a better life during the days of colonial occupation? Weren't there more civil, governmental, and economic systems/institutions that emploued Africans and which kept their bellies full?

It seems like African countries have only gotten poorer and more disease ridden since the flight of European colonial powers. So, in spite of all of the things that have gone wrong, has ANYTHING gotten better?

Last edited by cuba libre; 08-17-2009 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Why not ask them? I suspect you'd get the same answer which you'd have gotten from emancipated slaves if you'd asked them whether they were better off as slaves. Most said that in spite of the hardships and uncertainties of freedom, they much prefered it to servitude.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:19 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,795,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
Didn't the average African live a better life during the days of colonial occupation? Weren't there more civil, governmental, and economic systems/institutions that emploued Africans and which kept their bellies full?
(Mod Cut) sarcasam not needed!!
"In 1985, the United Nations' Whitaker Report recognized Germany's turn of the century attempt to exterminate the Herero and Namaqua peoples of South-West Africa as one of the earliest attempts at genocide in the 20th century. In total, some 65,000 Herero (80 percent of the total Herero population), and 10,000 Namaqua (50 percent of the total Namaqua population) were killed between 1904 and 1907. Characteristic of this genocide was death by starvation and the poisoning of wells for the Herero and Namaqua population who were trapped in the Namib Desert."

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed

The Butcher of Congo

The African poor: a history - Google Books

The African inheritance - Google Books

When you finish READING the provided links, then we can talk.

Last edited by Yac; 12-08-2009 at 07:27 AM.. Reason: Snarky comment.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:25 PM
 
Location: MIA
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Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
This being a Cuba Libre thread the only answer that wouldn't be too complex for the OP would be to answer, no.

"In 1985, the United Nations' Whitaker Report recognized Germany's turn of the century attempt to exterminate the Herero and Namaqua peoples of South-West Africa as one of the earliest attempts at genocide in the 20th century. In total, some 65,000 Herero (80 percent of the total Herero population), and 10,000 Namaqua (50 percent of the total Namaqua population) were killed between 1904 and 1907. Characteristic of this genocide was death by starvation and the poisoning of wells for the Herero and Namaqua population who were trapped in the Namib Desert."

Moderator cut: link removed, linking to competitors sites is not allowed

The Butcher of Congo

The African poor: a history - Google Books

The African inheritance - Google Books

When you finish READING the provided links, then we can talk.
(Mod Cut..)

Africans have tried to exterminate themselves and their own domestic enemies several times since the end of the colonial era. There have been several million-plus person genocides there in the last couple decades. See what 10 cent Chinese made machetes did in the 1990's.

Also, Africans practiced slavery long before the Portugese started dabbling on the west coast of Africa, so don't pretend Europeans are the only offenders and Africans are the only victims.

Last edited by Yac; 12-08-2009 at 07:27 AM..
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
Here comes the uber liberal...

Africans have tried to exterminate themselves and their own domestic enemies several times since the end of the colonial era. There have been several million-plus person genocides there in the last couple decades. See what 10 cent Chinese made machetes did in the 1990's.

Also, Africans practiced slavery long before the Portugese started dabbling on the west coast of Africa, so don't pretend Europeans are the only offenders and Africans are the only victims.
Also don't pretend that only African's practice genocide. Our "civilized" brethren in western Europe have been pretty good at it too, as recently as the 1990's in the Balkans.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:06 PM
 
Location: MIA
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Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Also don't pretend that only African's practice genocide. Our "civilized" brethren in western Europe have been pretty good at it too, as recently as the 1990's in the Balkans.
(Mod Cut)

I am only trying to measure the economic output, quality of life, and safety of the average African in comparison with what existed before the end of colonialism. Is there any way to find this out without diving into the victimhood abyssal?

Last edited by Thyra; 08-18-2009 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 08-18-2009, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
6,106 posts, read 5,409,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
Didn't the average African live a better life during the days of colonial occupation? Weren't there more civil, governmental, and economic systems/institutions that emploued Africans and which kept their bellies full?

It seems like African countries have only gotten poorer and more disease ridden since the flight of European colonial powers. So, in spite of all of the things that have gone wrong, has ANYTHING gotten better?

The lot of the average African wasn't very good even with British, France, Portuguese, German, Italian or Belgium rule. Most European powers viewed their African territories as places to extract natural resources or grow crops of value in Europe not Africa like rubber, cocoa, coffee, or palm oil. What investment in infrastructure was purely focused on getting the resources out not move people from city to city. Belgium practically ran its Congo colony as a slave camp. Belgium even didn't educate their blacks and when they left in 1960 Congo only had a few hundred high school graduates to run that huge country. You could count on your hand the number of college graduates. So Congo was completely unprepared for independence. African states were largely lead to independence by what came to be called Big Men. Some turned out to be good caring people like Leopold Senghor, Jomo Kenyatta, and Julius Nyerere. Others like Kwame Nkrumah or Nnamdi Azikiwe lost control and their countries suffered until the right kind of man gained power like Jerry Rawlings. Other African countries were not so lucky and they got the Idi Amin's and Mobutu Sese Seko's and worse. Others like Angola and Mozambique had a colonial power that wouldn't leave and the struggle for freedom took a 20 year detour. Today most of the worst leaders gone(Usually these men died even they couldn't cheat the grim reeper) and the bloodshed has stopped. Many of the dictators are gone. But what a cost
several countries are failing states(Zimbabwe, Congo, Sudan, Chad, CAR) or failed states (Somalia).
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Old 08-18-2009, 02:45 PM
 
Location: MIA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwruckman View Post
The lot of the average African wasn't very good even with British, France, Portuguese, German, Italian or Belgium rule. Most European powers viewed their African territories as places to extract natural resources or grow crops of value in Europe not Africa like rubber, cocoa, coffee, or palm oil. What investment in infrastructure was purely focused on getting the resources out not move people from city to city. Belgium practically ran its Congo colony as a slave camp. Belgium even didn't educate their blacks and when they left in 1960 Congo only had a few hundred high school graduates to run that huge country. You could count on your hand the number of college graduates. So Congo was completely unprepared for independence. African states were largely lead to independence by what came to be called Big Men. Some turned out to be good caring people like Leopold Senghor, Jomo Kenyatta, and Julius Nyerere. Others like Kwame Nkrumah or Nnamdi Azikiwe lost control and their countries suffered until the right kind of man gained power like Jerry Rawlings. Other African countries were not so lucky and they got the Idi Amin's and Mobutu Sese Seko's and worse. Others like Angola and Mozambique had a colonial power that wouldn't leave and the struggle for freedom took a 20 year detour. Today most of the worst leaders gone(Usually these men died even they couldn't cheat the grim reeper) and the bloodshed has stopped. Many of the dictators are gone. But what a cost
several countries are failing states(Zimbabwe, Congo, Sudan, Chad, CAR) or failed states (Somalia).
The term "failed state" did not apply to Africa in the early 1900's. The continent was booming- building railroads, factories, mines, farms, etc.; the sky was the limit.

With order having left Africa for good, most of the entrepreneurs like Indian Asians and whites who dominated the mercantile scene fled for their lives. I don't know how anyone could constrew that the present day situation is better.

Last edited by cuba libre; 08-18-2009 at 02:54 PM..
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
The term "failed state" did not apply to Africa in the early 1900's. The continent was booming- building railroads, factories, mines, farms, etc.; the sky was the limit.

With order having left Africa for good, most of the entrepreneurs like Indian Asians and whites who dominated the mercantile scene fled for their lives. I don't know how anyone could constrew that the present day situation is better.

The white and Indian communities made their own beds in Africa and their behavior is the definition of racism. They made hundreds of millions of Africans feel ashamed of their languages, culture and skin color in their own country. The Afrikkaners were the quintisential racist dictators as far as Africans were concerned. The Dutch Reformed Church even used Christian theology to justify suppression of blacks making Africans the spawn of Cain and the black complexion the Mark of Cain. Apartheid South Africa was even trying the American solution to the problem that the majority blacks posed to the white community. Segregation of blacks in reservations called Bantustans. These were set up in the poorest and often the dryest parts of South Africa and the intent was to drive all blacks to these places and out of rich areas like the Transvaal, Capetown and Natal. In the 1970s and 80s. South Africa looked like bomb waiting to go off. Fortunately white South Africa had a P. W. Botha and the ANC had Nelson Mandella and the two men cut a historic deal that put the ANC in power and white South Africa would tell the truth about apartheid, get to keep their property, and get a pardon from the black South African government. Are things perfect in South Africa nearly 20 years later. Of course not, but the whole sale butchery of blacks, coloureds and whites was not realized. There are many examples of what was feared to happen like in Uganda or Nigeria. But For Africans they no longer have to do the step'in fetch it routine to the white master race and that is a giant step forwards for the black race. The blacks would agree with Milton's Lucifer that "it is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven." Thus it is a better world for blacks and in South Africa the White Africans some of whom can trace there ancestry back 300-400 years.
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Old 08-18-2009, 05:13 PM
 
31,371 posts, read 33,795,276 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuba libre View Post
(Mod Cut..)

Africans have tried to exterminate themselves and their own domestic enemies several times since the end of the colonial era. There have been several million-plus person genocides there in the last couple decades. See what 10 cent Chinese made machetes did in the 1990's.
When you understand the ramifications of artificially drawn boundaries, competing interest and the us of the continent by both the Soviet Union and the U.S. as it mock battlefield, then you might come to understand the crisis of post colonial Africa.

Quote:
Also, Africans practiced slavery long before the Portugese started dabbling on the west coast of Africa, so don't pretend Europeans are the only offenders and Africans are the only victims.
So did most of the world at virtually the same point in history, with one major distinction, slavery as practiced, didn't define slaves as a lesser species of human.
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