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A better question may have been, what if "we" had embraced a philosophy of fairness from the earliest of colonial times? Recent history writings have shown the colonial model to be the choice of exported wisdom from a sundry of European nations, and the US. Sometimes disguised as "missionary" ventures, coupled with the notion of a pre ordained destiny, they had all the invitation needed to accomplish the pillaging that came to be known as, "the Markets".
The history of market development has been viewed by many to be a fairly innocuous exercise of normal human relations, Cuba, was, and still is, suffering the effects of that economic philosophy.
Some posters have done their homework ,and have been spot on in their assertion that the history of Cuba was just one of many tales in which the US and European dominant markets were shored up by a systematic approach to robbing and brutality that enabled the rise of that construct of extractive economies.
Most of South America has a similar history, Castro is a Johnny come lately figure in all of this. The future of Cuba will undoubtedly be influenced by the past, as will most of the southern hemisphere, proving that "globalism", is certainly not new. The entire Cuban debacle has to be viewed as an ongoing process in which capital interests are held up as being superior to those of the worlds citizens. All the talk of the ostensible reasons for our embargo seem to fade away when faced with the fact that we have never seen a true form of Communism, nor have we seen any pure form of Capitalism.
It has always been about dominance, not economic constucts. I would say to those who still believe the myth, wherein these two economic systems are locked in mortal combat, to an end that determines the superiority of one over the other, need only to look around the world today and ask themselves whether the current state of world economic affairs are worthy of any nation declaring themselves, the "winner".
Let me restate my question, which you seem to have missed. Name a communist state that was allowed to run and succeed of fail on its own merits, without oppressive force being applied from external powers.
As for your Korea example, how much help did the US give South Korea, and much to North Korea? If you consider this difference to be irrelevant in the development of the two countries, why did we waste all that aid we gave South Korea. which would have developed anyway?
This question is similar to asking - Name a dinosaur that if it were not extinct - due to catastrophe, competition, or simple evolution...or all 3 - would be a great zoo attraction?
Communism & Socialism have been tried and have mostly failed... on the contrary democracy and representative government/economy have been established and have proven to be a more successful government/economic system than communist & socialist government/economic system when compared head to head.
This seems to prove to me that it is an inferior type of government/economic system.
If the USSR would have won the cold war then I would have to say the opposite. Your question is a great theoretical debate, which in practice is irrelevant due to numerous examples of failure.
Cuba has all kinds of tourists from Europe, Canada etc. and so does Florida. I just think the whole thing is funny.
Good point about the boat lift....Castro completely played Carter off as a gigantic chump and gave the US the finger big-time with that move. Then again, we'd tried to kill him so there are just grudges there that aren't going away.
There are countries that NEED the US to be the evil menace so that they can justify their dictatorial controls and blame failed policies on.
This is nothing new, we do it in the US also...remember all the Japan bashing in the 70's and 80's? Or lately its the oil countries not selling us oil cheaply enough...the list goes on.
I agree. But lest we forget the US was not the greatest neighbor Cuba could have. We freed them only to occupy them and even considered annexing them at one point. We have earned a great deal of distrust.
Were I Obama, I would say the hell with it and lift restrictions unilaterally and then act the better, moral man. In short, I would take us out of the calculus.
You would be hard-pressed to find a majority of Cubans who like Castro anyway.
MothConsidering the three "empires" that have had more impact in Cuba during 500 years, Spain, the US and USSR, United States had been the better and more benign so far. Cuban people are not Anti-American.Yes, there was an important Annexation Mouvement back in the XIXth Century, but Annexionists were Cubans that fought against Spain. The main enemies of Annexation was Washington, that destroyed four attempts back in the XIXth Century.The US occupied Cuba until 1911, but their occupation was very positive and benign in comparison with Spain. In 1931, Cuba reppealed the infamous Platt Amendment to the Cuban Constitution and became totally independent.The real Embargo is not in place anymore. The US is the fourth commercial partner of Cuba. Cuba buys 80 percent of foodstocks to the US. You can find anything American in Cuban supermarkets and malls. Even the food distributed by the rationing system is American.The Embargo would have remained weven if there weren't any single Cuban in the United States.Obama won't do a thing. He's just acting like your typical Democrat, but he's far smarter than the others, he's forcing Castro to advance steps and cancelling his propaganda, but Castro won't do a thing since he's not interested. He's got Chavez.Americans should forget all their "guilt" complex. Compared to Spain, that perpretraded a genocide in Cuba, and to the USSR, that got Cuba involved in wars in Africa and South America were thousands died and that supported the worse and more criminal ruler since General Weyler, Americans are "angelitos".
MathguyDon't forget the shooting down of planes of Brothers to the Rescue during the Clinton Administration. It has been a constant during the last 50 years. When Democrats start playing footsie foot with Fidel Castro, he always tramples all the toes of Uncle Sam. His brother, Raul, is not that abrupt, but the result will be the same.Yes, Cuba receives tourists, but due to the fact that Cuba is a Marxist Economy, Cuba is not a competitive destination. In fact, this year Cuba received more tourists, but the income generated was inferior. Cuba is Ok for low-income package tours from Canada or Europe, but the country is not prepared for Americans tourists.
This question is similar to asking - Name a dinosaur that if it were not extinct - due to catastrophe, competition, or simple evolution...or all 3 - would be a great zoo attraction?
.
But we know why the extinct Passenger Pigeon failed. Americans with guns slaughtered them by the billions until there was not a single one left. An apt metaphor for Communism. It had nothing to do with the natural capacity of Passenger Pigeons to survive in a natural environment.
The Dinosaur experiment took place in a distant past, about which we know very little, and it can be only conjectured about. Every communist experiment took place while we stood and watched and we know exactly why they all failed. Single-minded effort, often brutal, sometimes outright murderous on an inhumant scale, was applied to the global task of destroying every scintilla of communist endeavor.
I'm still waiting. Show me the nation that tried communism and was left in peace on a level table to play it out. You cant, and your proof that you can't redoubles with every evasion.
Born and RaisedHere in Europe we have a lot of "Caviar Communists" that spend their holydays in yachts cruising the Mediterranean. I always wanted to be an "Anti-American Caviar Communist", but I'm not rich enough. In Europe, the best thing is to be a "Gauche Caviar" and dress with extremely expensive rags and chastise everything America, then you are "cool". The problem with them is that they smell rotten since a long time ago and became subsidised clowns.They keep insisting that "another world is possible" and that communism was good, but the "human part of the equation was wrong". They, that never set foot in a working class neighbourhood, proclaim that they love "proletarians". Considering all the crimes and miseries that Communism provoked during the past century, communism should be as impopular as Nazism, but we have many "nostalgics" here that believed in Stalin while living a sweet life in Western European capitalist countries.They keep on insisting that Communism should be repeated again....but if any would dare to repeat that Fascism, Francoism or Nazism should be repeated again, he's immediately accused of "Fascist"."Progressives" and "alternatives" in Europe are more of a Urban Tribe, they are "snobs" that couldn't live a single day in the USSR or Cuba living as a native.
What would Cuba be like today, if , in 1959, the US President had said to Castro, "Welcome to the American community of nations. It will be interesting to watch your experiment in social and economic development. If we can do anything to help. please let us know. We'll be happy to trade fairly with you for commodities and manufactured goods. We'd appreciate if you did not invite the Russians to establish bases on your island, but with our spirit of friendship, why would you need to?"
Impossible. The US was using Cuba as an offshore base for illicit activities unfit for US shores. There was nothing trustworthy about the US government's activities in Cuba. The US also tried to knock off Fidel while he was on the rise. It was not about a country ignorant of the inner turmoil of Cuba. The US was complicit in maintaining the Batista regime. By the time he assumed power it was already too late.
The activities that you mentioned; gambling, booze, prostitution, secret banking, abortion clinics, sex shows and hiring black baseball players for Cuban leagues were illicit in the United States, not in Cuba. Cuba is not a protestant country, no Dry Laws and segregation was illegal (but a reality in some areas of Havana).
Cuba performed the same mission that Grand Cayman, Nevada, Bahamas and Bermudas, or Andorra, Montecarlo or Switzerland in Europe.
When he chose to become a base for the USSR, he chose sides in a war, the Cold War.
The U.S. supported Castro from 1958 and gave him media coverage. You should read the American at that time, with the famous interviews of Castro when he was at Sierra Maestra.
The U.S. only acted against Castro when he declared himself a Marxist and nationalized American properties.
But we know why the extinct Passenger Pigeon failed. Americans with guns slaughtered them by the billions until there was not a single one left. An apt metaphor for Communism. It had nothing to do with the natural capacity of Passenger Pigeons to survive in a natural environment.
The Dinosaur experiment took place in a distant past, about which we know very little, and it can be only conjectured about. Every communist experiment took place while we stood and watched and we know exactly why they all failed. Single-minded effort, often brutal, sometimes outright murderous on an inhumant scale, was applied to the global task of destroying every scintilla of communist endeavor.
I'm still waiting. Show me the nation that tried communism and was left in peace on a level table to play it out. You cant, and your proof that you can't redoubles with every evasion.
There are no examples because in practice it is an inferior government/economic system. It has been tried and has failed. If it were a superior government/economic system then there would be examples. Again this is a debate that can only be held in a theoretical arena -- due to the fact that it is inferior to other government/economic forms in practical and real terms.
As far as your contention of a "single-minded, often brutal, sometimes outright murderous on an inhumant scale" this sword cuts both ways -- I can name a certain communist experiment - the USSR - that committed the very atrocities that I guess you seem to be trying to place on the United States - on their own populace.
So again there are no examples because everywhere it has been tried it has failed. Utopia does not exist and every government/economic system will have struggle, competition, and war. It is Darwinism and it has been selected for extinction.
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