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Old 10-14-2009, 02:59 AM
 
Location: Turn right at the stop sign
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Originally Posted by Nosferatu View Post
Tony

In 1942, before the speech, Franco fired Serrano Sunyer, the former Foreign Affair Minister (married to her sister) and a Nazy sympathizer, and he named Jordana, a man totally devout to Neutrality. He also controlled fervent Fascists (Falange) like Girón and Arrese that wanted involvement in the war.

Franco made that fanatic speech at the Superior School of War at the end of 1942 to content the Falange, FET, but in reality, he cut their wings. At that time, the Falange was demoralized because they thought that Franco had switched sides because the allied landing (and they were right).

Franco, as usual, was playing a double hand.

The Nazis in Madrid devised a plan to remove Franco, but Hitler didn't approve it because he knew that Falange was not powerful enough.

Franco was a "gallego", from Northwest of Spain, celts. There's a saying about "Gallegos" in Spain. "When you meet a Gallego in a stairway, you never know if he's climbing the stairs or going down".

At the Hendaya documents, during negotiations with Hitler, Franco wrote "speak in gallego", that can be translated as "speak in a tortous way never showing your thoughts".

He knew, from the very same inception of his meeting with Hitler, that the caporal would never meet his unrealistic demands, and just to insure that he would never accept, he added French Marocco, and he also said that he would never allow foreign troops to cross Spain to take Gibraltar, but he kept sending wool and wolfram and of course, the Blue Division.

The policy of Spain from the dimissal of Serrano Sunyer was:

Neutral in the conflict between Western Allies and Germany, in favour of Germany in her struggle against the U.S.S.R, and in favour of the Allies in their battle against Japan (Japanese killed many Spanish and destroyed many Spanish properties in the Philippines. They confined Spanish to Concentration Camps and exterminated them).
I don't wish to run this subject into the ground, so these will be my final thoughts on the matter.

Franco was very clever in how he used the predominant political movement of the time, the Falange, as the means to gain control of Spain. And once the Falange (or more correctly those from the Falange that he had surrounded himself with) ceased to be of use to him, he slowly discarded them. The main reason for doing seems to have been driven by his desire to concentrate all power in his own hands, rather then have his destiny controlled by the Falange.

But it would seem that from 1939 up to at least 1942, Franco and the Falange were fairly in sync when it came to the future of Spain, the war, and a possible agreement with Germany. Falangists dreamt of re-establishing the Spanish Empire, and so did Franco. Falangists thought Spain should become a part of the Axis, and so did Franco. They only parted ways when it became less likely that the Axis would prevail against the Allies. Falangists believed until the bitter end that Germany would win. Franco no longer believed it, but nonetheless would have been happy had they won.

What should not be ignored is the simple fact that it was Franco that approached Hitler, not the other way around. Hitler never asked for General Vigon to meet with him in Berlin, anymore then he asked Franco to meet him in Hendaye. Franco's demands for territory in North Africa weren't made because he thought Hitler would never give in to him. Franco wanted that territory and hoped that with France out of the picture, he might well get it.

If Franco had truly wanted from the beginning to keep Spain neutral, it would have been a very simple thing to do. He needed only to follow the example of the Spanish government during World War One; announce your neutrality and stick to it. Instead, he danced back and forth between being strictly neutral and not so neutral. Had he charted the same course that Prime Minister Eduardo Dato Iradier did in the first war, the results may well have been the same for Spain; money flowing like water into the treasury and the country held in high esteem throughout the world. By Franco choosing his own path, Spain ended up as poor, if not poorer, then she had been after the Civil War and spent nearly a decade in international isolation on top of that.

Seems to me that no matter how clever Franco may have been, at least in this particular instance, all he really managed to do was to outsmart himself.

Last edited by TonyT; 10-14-2009 at 03:18 AM..
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Old 10-14-2009, 03:54 AM
 
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If Franco had truly wanted from the beginning to keep Spain neutral, it would have been a very simple thing to do. He needed only to follow the example of the Spanish government during World War One; announce your neutrality and stick to it. Instead, he danced back and forth between being strictly neutral and not so neutral. Had he charted the same course that Prime Minister Eduardo Dato Iradier did in the first war, the results may well have been the same for Spain; money flowing like water into the treasury and the country held in high esteem throughout the world. By Franco choosing his own path, Spain ended up as poor, if not poorer, then she had been after the Civil War and spent nearly a decade in international isolation on top of that.
-------

Franco could not have acted like Spain did in WWI.

First, Spain was not perceived as Neutral by the allies just as in 1914. Spain won the war with the help of the AXIS and Falange was the only legal Party.

After the war, even considering that Spain remained neutral, Spain was considered part of the Axis, with the ensuing blockade that lasted until the visit of Eisenhower in 1959.

Franco was afraid of a German invasion. He knew perfectly well that Hitler could not win the war without Gibraltar.

The Falange was all powerful until 1942 and Franco was afraid of them.

Later, Franco was afraid of an Allied Invasion.

No, Spain in 1939 was not Spain of 1914.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Norwood, MN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 FOOT 3 View Post
I got to thinking about how Spain stayed neutral in WW1 and WW2 while most European powers were not during one or those wars. Any thoughts as to why Spain stayed out of both of the wars??
Because they were smart and didnt want to get involved in the two senseless slaughters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Peterborough, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
The short answer? Because they were smart.
Agreed. A second reason might be that they took several years to get over their defeat by the United States, and weren't in a hurry to fight another war, while in WW2 they were of course still licking their wounds from the recent Civil War. Franco wasn't a nice man, but he was sensible and already had enough glory as the civil war victor without chasing it on foreign fields as well.

In 'Face to Face with Kaiserism', James W Gerard has a short but interesting chapter on Spain in the First War.
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:43 PM
 
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Spain went through a devestating civil war from 36 through 39 making its entry into WWII unlikely. But calling it neutral is questionable. It commited signficant resources to the Axis including selling them rare tungsten for their APCD ammo and sending thousands of Spanish soldiers (the blue division) to fight in Russia.

Spain was not important enough for the most part and not populated or industrial enough to get involved in either war. And it had internal problems that made entry into one impossible even had it desired it.

Portugal fought for the allies in WWI.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Cali
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
Spain went through a devestating civil war from 36 through 39 making its entry into WWII unlikely. But calling it neutral is questionable. It commited signficant resources to the Axis including selling them rare tungsten for their APCD ammo and sending thousands of Spanish soldiers (the blue division) to fight in Russia.

Spain was not important enough for the most part and not populated or industrial enough to get involved in either war. And it had internal problems that made entry into one impossible even had it desired it.

Portugal fought for the allies in WWI.
Franco did not send any Spanish soldiers to fight against the British or Americans from what I've heard and read. He was also very opposed to Japan's invasion of the Phillipines.
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Old 01-27-2010, 09:35 PM
 
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The primary reason I think that Hitler was cold to the Spanish offer was that he had limited interest in the Mediterean theater until at least the US entry into the war. Its true that he sent forces under duress to prop up the Italians in NA, but as little as he could. There is no solid evidence that Hitler ever seriously considered sending large forces through Spain to attack Gibralter, by late 1940 his thoughts were already on Russia. At heart he had only limited knowledge or interest in naval operations so Gibralter was not a signficant as it should have been. Thus he had no real need for Spanish assistance. In contrast Vichy France and Italy were much more important allies both militarily and in terms of trained manpower for German factories.

Spain was an economic wreck in 1940 and in no way could contribute signficant military or economic forces to the axis cause. Its greatest contribution was likely selling the Germans tungsten. Although its often suggested Franco supported the Falange movement, in practice I think he simply used it to help run Spain. He was a traditional Spanish conservative not a fascist and some of the anti-christian behavior of Nazi officials likely horrified him.

Some minor asides. While its true that the Blue Division left by 1944, the so called Blue Legion stayed and fought on. Its been claimed that some of the last defenders of Berlin were part of this unit, although that has been questioned by others. Second, while the original members of the Division were volunteers this was not true of its many replacements which numbered around 45 thousand. At least some of them were conscripted.

Ultimately neither Hitler nor Franco had much to gain from an alliance given their very different goals and that is why it never occured.
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:28 AM
 
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Franc was much like Mussolini who never really wanted war but did want to become a colail power. Bascially the british pushed mussolini inot teh geramn camp for little partail reason.They put sanctions on Italy for the invasion of Abyssina in the league of nations.The sanction never has cahnce of really working;the one that did it has done the same in many countries and it drove Mussolini into the german camp and they like germany and japan left the leagure and joinned a pact. The same thing bascially happened with japn for the british i that they had to pick between the americans and the japnese. The american thought would never agree to a treay on defence with other nations like japan would ahve. Int eh end it was a constanht treatty ;secret treaties amoung colonial nations to seire dthier colonial powers spread thru out the world.Brtain may have had the mpost poerful navy but it could not really cover their empire without assurances and treaties.The wahington naval treaty really made britan a nation with too much to guard with too few ships.
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:48 AM
 
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The Italian sanctions over ethiopia were tied to a League of Nations action to prevent a war of agression. Its the one time that organization actually undertook signficant action for peace and of course it failed. Still I think Mussolini would have joined the winning side (as it appeared) in 1940 regardless. Like many at the time he thought the war was essentially over in June 1940 an wanted to get in and obtain some gains while he could.
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Old 01-30-2010, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Turn right at the stop sign
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noetsi
Some minor asides. While its true that the Blue Division left by 1944, the so called Blue Legion stayed and fought on. Its been claimed that some of the last defenders of Berlin were part of this unit, although that has been questioned by others. Second, while the original members of the Division were volunteers this was not true of its many replacements which numbered around 45 thousand. At least some of them were conscripted.
The Spanish “Division Azul” was a volunteer force made up primarily of hardcore members of the Falange movement and regular Spanish army veterans who had fought in the Civil War. The unit was commanded by General Agustin Munoz Grandes but was subject to German control. The division began arriving on the Eastern Front in August of 1941, and first saw action against Soviet forces in October 1941. Throughout it’s time on the Eastern Front, Division Azul served in the area around Leningrad. It saw it’s heaviest action in February 1941 when the Soviets launched “Operation Polar Star”. The offensive was designed to recapture from the Germans the vital highway and rail lines that linked Moscow and Leningrad. On the 10th of February, 5,900 men of the Division Azul took the full brunt of an assault by the 63rd Guards Rifle Division of the Russian 55th Army just outside the town of Krasny Bor. Trapped and unable to retreat into the town which was held by more Spanish troops, many of these men were forced to fight to the death. As the Russians advanced into Krasny Bor, Spanish troops put up a fierce defense but were driven out of the main portion of the town. German reinforcements arrived and the Spanish were able to regroup.

Over the next three days, the Spanish managed to fend off repeated Soviet attacks and even launch counterattacks to regain lost ground. By the 13th, the Russian 55th Army had lost one third of it’s fighting strength and the majority of it’s tanks. The fighting ended up lasting until March 19th when the Soviets suspended the operation. Operation Polar Star ended up being a spectacular failure, largely due to the resistance offered up by the men of the Division Azul. The losses suffered by the Spanish were so severe that in Spain, February 10th became known as “Black Wednesday”. Hitler was so impressed by the fighting skills of the Spanish that he personally designed a medal that was presented to the remaining members of Division Azul. The division remained on the Eastern Front until October 1943, when a combination of the reduced strength of the force and Franco’s decision to abandon “non-belligerency” in favor of “neutrality”, led to the order for it to be returned to Spain. In all, about 47,000 Spanish officers and soldiers served on the Eastern Front. Of that total, 22,000 men were wounded and approximately 4,500 killed in action.

Those men who refused to go back to Spain (the equivalent of three battalions) were formed into the “Spanish Legion” or “Legion Azul” in November of 1943 and continued to fight on the Eastern Front until March of 1944. During that time period, approximately 250 more Spaniards volunteered to join the Legion, despite Franco’s prohibition against such action. When the Legion was disbanded in March 1944, those who wished to continue fighting became members of the Waffen SS, serving in the “Spanische-Freiwilligen Kompanie der SS 101”. This unit was initially attached to the “28 SS Freiwilligen Panzergrendier Division Wallonien” which was made up of Belgian and French volunteers. At some point after February 1945, the Spanish unit was split up, with some members remaining with “Division Wallonien” and others being transferred to “11 SS Freiwilligen Panzergrenadier Division Nordland” which was composed of ethnic Germans and Scandinavians. Those Spaniards with “Division Nordland” did participate in the Battle of Berlin and were engaged in heavy fighting in the area around the Reich Air Ministry and Propaganda Ministry. Few members of “Nordland” were able to escape Berlin, and those that did were taken into Allied custody at the Elbe River. There was also a “Spanische-Freiwilligen Kompanie der SS 102” but it is believed this unit was folded into “Spanische-Freiwilligen Kompanie der SS 101” and thus may also have seen action in Berlin.
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