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Old 01-28-2010, 10:32 AM
 
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Napolean like hitler knew he could not leave russia untouched if he wanted to dominate europe.Idealogy aside even Hitler knew that russia would alwys pose a danger to nay one wanting to domaite europe.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by texdav View Post
Napolean like hitler knew he could not leave russia untouched if he wanted to dominate europe.Idealogy aside even Hitler knew that russia would alwys pose a danger to nay one wanting to domaite europe.
There is no evidence that Alexander had any intentions of attacking Napoleon. Nor did he have the capacity to.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
There is no evidence that Alexander had any intentions of attacking Napoleon. Nor did he have the capacity to.
Napoleon wasn't concerned with Russia attacking France, but he certainly feared a Russian attack to reclaim Poland which was then serving as the buffer between the two empires.

Still, the key motive for Napoleon was anti-British, they were his last remaining enemy who represented a genuine threat. Napoleon was unable to make any sort of dent in the Royal Navy's command of the seas, so no invasion of Britain was possible. With that option closed, economic warfare was all that was available. The Continental System was that economic warfare, the idea being that it did not matter if Britain controlled the sea lanes if no one in Europe would agree to be a trading partner with them.

What made Russia a threat was their change in policy in 1812, re-opening trade with Britain. That gave England a doorway into Europe and fouled the economic isolation which was the French goal. Russian had to be brought back into a cooperative stance.

In the larger sense of understanding, the invasion of Russia was actually an attack on England.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post

In the larger sense of understanding, the invasion of Russia was actually an attack on England.
Interesting way of putting it.
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:46 AM
 
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The problem with that logic is two fold. First, England was not a significant threat to Napoleon's command of the continent. If he had thought they were, sending six hundred thousand more troops into Spain would have been the logical response, rather than the far more dangerous invasion of Russia. Or for that matter building a massive fleet in the countries he controlled. However many ships he lost, he could have outbuilt the English.

Second, the continental system was largely a myth. There was constant avoidance of it through massive smuggling, including to places a lot closer to home than Russia (like the Netherlands or France itself). Russia simply was not that critical to the English economy for the massive risk Napoleon took in Russia.
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Old 01-30-2010, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
The problem with that logic is two fold. First, England was not a significant threat to Napoleon's command of the continent. If he had thought they were, sending six hundred thousand more troops into Spain would have been the logical response, rather than the far more dangerous invasion of Russia. Or for that matter building a massive fleet in the countries he controlled. However many ships he lost, he could have outbuilt the English.

Second, the continental system was largely a myth. There was constant avoidance of it through massive smuggling, including to places a lot closer to home than Russia (like the Netherlands or France itself). Russia simply was not that critical to the English economy for the massive risk Napoleon took in Russia.
Yoiu really do not know what you are talking about here, which is usually a reason not to talk.

Of course England was a massive threat to Napoleon, how could you not understand this? Apparently Napoleon did. Are you unfamiliar with the entire Penisula War and how many French troops were tied up in the fighting in Spain and Portugal? Are you unaware that it was Britain which persuaded Spain to pull out of its alliance with France which was the start of the guerrilla warfare there?

Because England was shoring up Portugal, Napoleon had to try and sieze that nation as well. Because the Royal Navy commanded the seas, all supplies for the Portugese struggle had to come across Spain by land. At that point, not even a French messenger could safely cross Spain without an escort of at least a half company of cavalry. Nearly every supply convoy was attacked by Spanish partisans, who were being financed by Great Britain. Napoleon had immense advantages in numbers, but was defeated in Portugal by supply problems. All of this was the product of a very calculated and clever British policy.

Twice, when Napoleon tried to ally himself with The Netherlands in order to make use of their navy, the Brits simply attacked and destroyed the Dutch fleet while it was still in harbor. They destroyed the majority of the French naval arm in the two great battles of The Nile and Trafalgar.

Finally, before the disaster in Russia, which was the only nation to hold victories in land battles over the French? Are you aware that Wellington was undefeated in his Pensisula War battles? Despite the low quality of his Spanish allies, despite the small size of the British forces, despite the peeny pinching support given Wellington's troops in Spain, Wellington won every time. .... every battle, the only defeats that the French suffered on land anywhere.

But you lightly rule that England was not a significant threat? How could you possibly conclude such a nonsensical thing?

I really wish that you would educate yourself beyond hearing a few things on the History channel before plunging in with misinformed opinions. You are in way over your head with this stuff.
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Old 01-30-2010, 02:48 PM
 
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Yoiu really do not know what you are talking about here, which is usually a reason not to talk.
In other words I failed to agree with your opinion, which means by definition I am wrong.

If Napoleon thought that England was a serious threat he could have attacked them directly by sending the huge army he employed in Russia to engage them in Spain. And he could have easily tripled the size of his navy. He would have kept losing ships, but eventually he would have worn them out. Had the English really concerned him, he would have gone to Spain after the 1810 Austrian campaign with significant reinforcments and attacked the British directly. Not wait several years ignoring them and invade Russia instead.

England never took a single country away from Napoleon when he actively engaged them, that is before his debacle in Russia which destroyed much of his army. When he went to Spain in 1807 he routed the English army under John Moore within three months. Had he really been concerned about the Penisular war he would have taken 250,000 additional troops led by himself and demolished the English army.

Last edited by noetsi; 01-30-2010 at 02:57 PM..
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:11 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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noetsi

Quote:
In other words I failed to agree with your opinion, which means by definition I am wrong.

No, Noetsi, you failed to agree with the easily available facts, of which you obviously have not availed yourself. I am not offering any opinions here, I am stating the well known facts.

Do not come away with this under the delusion that this is anything other than you being flatly wrong and that this error is a direct product of your insufficient knowledge.
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Old 01-30-2010, 06:46 PM
 
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The easily available facts is that Napoleon chose not to engage the British in Spain nor go there himself. If he was really concerned about English operations on the continent, he would have attack them not Russia.

He also would have used the same influence that obtained contingents for his Russian operation to build ships 24/7 from 1807 on and engaged the British fleet. He had the entire shipyards of Europe other than Russia at his disposal. Yet, although building up the French fleet, he never did so nor did he engage the English flleets. Nor did he seek negoiations with the British.

If you consider that an example of someone deeply concerned about England taking away his European empire you do.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Fine Noetsi. We have your thesis that the nation which was primarily responsible for defeating and dethroning Bonaparte, didn't represent much of a a threat to him.

Thank you.
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