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Old 11-10-2009, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Way,Way Up On The Old East Coast
2,196 posts, read 1,994,039 times
Reputation: 1089

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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Many of the issues of the war were never resolved. The current political divide is proof of that. Obama and his regime believe federal goverment power can be used over the states in order to bring about the social change they desire. The conservatives believe states should retain the power, distrust large goverment and believe in traditional values. How is this that different from 1860???? The north supported larger more powerful federal goverment, while the south stuck to the idea that states were soverign. Yes the slavery issue is long dead, and it was the trigger issue in 1860, however abortion, gay marriage, socialized medicine, federal spending all could become trigger issues in the modern era. Even though the last election suggest that the big goverment folks have won the upper hand, those who cling to traditional American ideas of goverment and culture are still a very large group. Although they are concentrated in the south and mountain west, there are also many of them now in the midwest or even interior California. Confederate flags can be seen on trucks in places like Indiana or Michigan. The tea partys are proof that anger is building, and our political divides are very serious, as they were in the years leading up to the war. Im not saying we are heading for another one (civil war), but I am saying the issues remain unresloved and we need to be careful as a nation how we handle them or we could find ourselves headed down a dark path.
Greetings,

Indeed ....."Great Common Sense & Wisdom" abounds in this great Post !

Any "Career Washington Politicians" whom may be viewing this froum as well as many of the regular posters should take a "Very Close Look" at
the above Post !

How refreshing to read a post with such Wisdom !

A lot of folks on this forum ..... (myself included) could greatly benefit from adopting danielj72's outstanding style of Post composition !

As We Take A Closer Look ! We May Actually learn Something ! LOL

Thank A Bunch / Lamar

Last edited by L.Funk; 11-10-2009 at 07:36 PM.. Reason: Words out of place / Thanks / Lamar
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Old 11-10-2009, 07:38 PM
 
Location: MI
1,069 posts, read 3,198,147 times
Reputation: 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus Podgorny View Post
Must be why you guys keep waving that disgusting flag every chance you get!

Gotten over it? You're still fighting it. You fought it for a hundred years with your stupid Jim Crow laws and even now you lag behind the rest of the country in education, income, health, infant death rates, and just about every other measurable statistic.

Frankly, I wish you'd become your own country. After freeing the slaves, of course. Massa have to pick his own cotton.
I agree but the North couldn't let that happen as the South was bringing in 70% of the revenue back then.

The North does it different now. Look at where all this bailout money is going.....GM, Chrysler, AIG, etc, all Northern companies. You all couldn't survive in 1862 without the South and you couldn't do it in 2007 either, but it would be nice to get rid of the parasites.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,746,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223 View Post
No question, that the South had the vast majority of slaves in this country. But to imply that somehow the North was enlightened on the question of race would be a seriously ludicrous position.

Being non slaveowning or better yet anti slaveowning is certainly enlightened compared to being slaveowning. That's not ludicrous at all.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,746,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlabel View Post
I agree but the North couldn't let that happen as the South was bringing in 70% of the revenue back then.
70% of what revenue?
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:25 PM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,746,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlabel View Post
Oh come on you know better. Plenty of Northern ships flying the U.S. flag brought slaves over here to begin with. Why go catch whales when human cargo brought in more profit? Some Southern plantations if they were not outright owned by Northern interests were certainley financed by them.

Better to be poor than property? I don't know, many slaves were fed, clothed, and recieved medical attention to their grave. If your a 7 year old child halfway through your 14 hour work day on your $1 a week job and you get your arms caught in machine in 1889, there is no disability, unemployment, workman's comp. You'd be out in the street unable to provide for yourself and it's unlikely anyone would provide for you.

The profits made by shipowners were trivial compared to those of slaveowners. One wonders how many slaveships were actually owned by Yankees, did southerners totally lack the enterprise to do their own slave shipping?

Then there's the little fact that many Northerners died fighting slavery and many southerners died defending it. No, I don't think the North had near the interest in slavery the South did, obviously as the one section fought against it and the other fought for it.

As for poverty vs. slavery, well that's a no brainer for me. Sorry if it isn't for you. To get away from the philosophical to the practical poverty could be overcome, especially in the mid 19th Century United States where wages and working conditions were usually good due to an expanding economy and westward expansion. But slavery, man, that's it, you're screwed for life.
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Old 11-10-2009, 08:48 PM
 
900 posts, read 672,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xlabel View Post
I agree but the North couldn't let that happen as the South was bringing in 70% of the revenue back then.

The North does it different now. Look at where all this bailout money is going.....GM, Chrysler, AIG, etc, all Northern companies. You all couldn't survive in 1862 without the South and you couldn't do it in 2007 either, but it would be nice to get rid of the parasites.
What kind of a dream world do you live in? What exactly did the South produce than the North couldn't live without? Cotton and tobacco? Go back to your history books and read where all of the manufacturing was located in 1862 Where all of the rolling stock was produced. Look at the number of miles of railroad track in the North compared to the South. Look at where everything was built. Look at every measurable factor in 1862 (and today, for that matter) and you'll come up with the real answer.

The North was an economic giant compared to the South - and still is.

As I said, I wish you guys had your own country. You'd be a lot happier and I can damn well gurantee you that we'd be a lot happier. Fewer religious fanatics, fewer anti-government crackpots, less poverty, less disease, lower infant mortality rates... you name it. And best of all, you could adopt that flag you're so proud of as your national flag! What could be better?
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:22 PM
 
Location: MI
1,069 posts, read 3,198,147 times
Reputation: 582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus Podgorny View Post
What kind of a dream world do you live in? What exactly did the South produce than the North couldn't live without? Cotton and tobacco? Go back to your history books and read where all of the manufacturing was located in 1862 Where all of the rolling stock was produced. Look at the number of miles of railroad track in the North compared to the South. Look at where everything was built. Look at every measurable factor in 1862 (and today, for that matter) and you'll come up with the real answer.

The North was an economic giant compared to the South - and still is.

As I said, I wish you guys had your own country. You'd be a lot happier and I can damn well gurantee you that we'd be a lot happier. Fewer religious fanatics, fewer anti-government crackpots, less poverty, less disease, lower infant mortality rates... you name it. And best of all, you could adopt that flag you're so proud of as your national flag! What could be better?
Government revenue, read your history books, there is no income tax in the U.S. at the time of the Civil War. Seventy percent of the revenue to run the government came from the South via tarrifs. You can claim all the manufacturing was in the North but where is the market for what they were manufacturing? In 1860, 58% of all U.S. exports were cotton alone. What did England need from the North? Iron? Steel?...don't think so England was quite adept at making their own.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:14 AM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,292,505 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
Being non slaveowning or better yet anti slaveowning is certainly enlightened compared to being slaveowning. That's not ludicrous at all.
But then your initial statement wasn't a comparitive one, was it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
No, but they engaged in it with great enthusiasm and for profit.
This was your original quote. It implies that the South had some monopoly on enthusiastically hating blacks. Back then the entire COUNTRY hated blacks.

Again, you can argue until the cows come home on "Who was nicer", but in the end the entire country was "enthusiastically" racist...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
And if ole Bobby Lee didn't hold with slavery he sure had an odd way of showing it, you know, in effect fighting to preserve it.
I believe Lee held his position in the Federal Army up until Virginia seceded.... I don't think any more proof is necessary on why he chose the side he did. The quote from Lee is well-known so I won't insult your intelligence by giving it to you.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:17 AM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,292,505 times
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Lee's resignation letter tendered the day after Virginia seceded:

General:
Since my interview with you on the 18th instant I have felt that I ought not longer to retain my commission in the Army. I therefore tender my resignation, which I request you will recommend for acceptance.
It would have been presented at once, but for the struggle it has cost me to separate myself from a service to which I have devoted all the best years of my life & all the ability I possessed.
During the whole of that time, more than 30 years, I have experienced nothing but kindness from my superiors, & the most cordial friendship from my companions. To no one Genl have I been as much indebted as to yourself for uniform kindness & consideration, & it has always been my ardent desire to merit your approbation.
I shall carry with me to the grave the most grateful recollections of your kind consideration, & your name & fame will always be dear to me. Save in the defense of my native State, I never desire again to draw my sword.
Be pleased to accept my most earnest wishes for the continuance of your happiness & prosperity & believe me most truly yours
R. E. Lee
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
10,261 posts, read 21,746,107 times
Reputation: 10454
Yes, Lee fought to protect his state. Which was rebelling to protect slavery. Regardless of Lee's personal motives what he was doing in effect was fighting to protect slavery.
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