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To coin a phrase, 'War is hell'. It shouldn't surprise anyone that millions of civilians died from bombing. It's absurd to place blame all on one side. My dad was co-pilot of a B-17 in the February 1945 Dresden bombings, and he regretted it to his dying day.
As long as we're discussing war crimes, some Japanese after WW2 were tried and punished for the war crime of waterboarding. But it was OK for us to do it during Dubya's administration.
Strange post - NEWSFLASH, GERMANY CITIES WERE BOMBED IN WW2. Oh my God no!
Like the original poster just got out of a cave after 60 years. History newbies should be banned from this site.
Anyways I read something interesting the other day. Months before D-day the allies were debating a bombing strategy to prepare for the invasion of fortress europe. We had already been bombing German cities of course as part of the strategic air campaign, but they wanted tactical targets - 1.) bombing oil and gas facilities, or 2.) bomb transportation centers in france - train stations, cross roads, etc. Option 2 made the best sense as a short term strategy for the invasion, but the problem was England and America feared the political fallout of civilians casualties in France, as some targets would be French cities.
Amazingly - that fear was aleviated by the French themselves. DeGualle, etc said do it. Bomb our people, our cities, to kill Germans. It was war, they accepted french civilian deaths would occur....it was that type of war. Total War. People have no concept today.
Anyways - my only issue with the strategic bombing campaing on German cities in WW2 is that it was an inneffective strategy in ending the war, as it was an inneffective strategy for Germany when they bombed English cities during the Battle of Britian. Otherwise, I would have had no objection to turning Germany into a sheet of glass. I have no moral quams, given the state of the war, the state of nazi germany, the "total war" conditions on the way the war was faught and supported by every otherwise "innocent" civilian in Germany, to killing every man, woman, and child in germany until they surrendered if indeed it would have helped to end the war and save allied lives. Certain bombing strategists in WW2 thought the bombing would end the war on it's own by destroying the moral of the Germans. It did not (although it may have contributed to a certain war wearniness that allowed them to accept surrendor once ground troops overran german territory). An A-bomb, like what Japan received, may have not done it. But the strategic bombing campaign alone in the european theater was not successful.
Amazingly - that fear was aleviated by the French themselves. DeGualle, etc said do it. Bomb our people, our cities, to kill Germans. It was war, they accepted french civilian deaths would occur....it was that type of war. Total War. People have no concept today.
On the contrary, we have a perfectly good concept of it. Those of us brought up with those quaint old ideas about morality reject the concept, as some people (unfortunately not enough) did at the time.
Lots of people like to cite the adage "war is hell" as though it covers anyone's crimes.
I certainly didn't mean to suggest that anyone's crimes are covered by it. I interpret it as a great reason to stay the hell out of it whenever possible.
Not genocide, I think you use the term too loosely. The goal was the killing of as many Germans as possible until they were defeated but not the extermination of the Germans. Once the Germans stopped fighting we stopped killing them.
Considering the (Nazi) Germans were doing that exact thing against the Allies..........live by the sword-----die by the sword. Especially factoring in that Hitler started WW II 9-1-1941 with his attack against Poland.
On the contrary, we have a perfectly good concept of it. Those of us brought up with those quaint old ideas about morality reject the concept, as some people (unfortunately not enough) did at the time.
An interesting response, which just reinforces my idea that you have no concept of the state of affairs in WW2. I find no evidence at all that "some people (...not enough)" rejected the bombing of civilian enemy targets in WW2 on moral grounds. Certainly at the beginning of the war civilian targets were avoided, that all went out the door when the Germans sent the Luftwaffe at English cities and the full impact of the need for survival during wartime was realized.
There was objections to the strategic bombing of German cities, by Generals and Politicians. Eisenhower for one objected. But you miss the point I was trying to make. The objection was not on moral grounds, but on war strategy - the argument was about what German targets to kill, who should we rain bombs on? The sole consideration was what would end the war the quickest. Sending B-17s to bomb cities or oil refineries? I can assure you civilian german casualties alone were not a factor in consideration. All the moral questions came years after the conclusion of the war, not suprisingly by people that were born after the war ended.
I won't address the real moral question you have - is the death of 10,000 allied soldiers worth the lives of 100 civilians of the enemy state (or a 1,000 civilians, or 10 civilians, or are you willing to loose 10,000 soldiers if it means no civilians casualties? give us your own "moral" measuring scale)? It's interesting that the French, for one, thought the death of their OWN civilians was worth the lives of allied soldiers. That is what I am telling you that you, or the French of today, cannot grasp.
Last edited by Dd714; 11-30-2009 at 06:36 AM..
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It shouldn't surprise anyone that millions of civilians died from bombing. It's absurd to place blame all on one side. My dad was co-pilot of a B-17 in the February 1945 Dresden bombings, and he regretted it to his dying day.